I addressed counterspells in D&D previously when I wrote a "Spells Through the Ages" for Dispel Magic (link one, two). It's a confusing and easy-to-miss issue in older editions -- and it is highly coupled with the round sequence in any edition -- so I'd like to address it once more. Most of the language quoted below is from the dispel magic spell in the various editions.
Chainmail Fantasy -- Of wizards it is written, "The stronger magician can successfully cast a counter-spell with a two dice score of 7 or better... A counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers.". Now, is this just another spell (against previous enemy castings), or an interruption ability (preventing a spell from being cast in the first place)? While Chainmail (and thus D&D) presents two different options for a movement turn sequence, neither addresses exactly when missile (or spell) determinations are made -- in each case players share a single undistinguished "missile fire" phase without further comment. It's within the realm of possibility that within that phase, it might be permitted for one player to declare a spell, and the other player to respond with a "counterspell", canceling the original casting, but it is not precisely spelled out in the book. However, you can see a problem might arise with both players delaying to see what the other does first before making their decision -- more likely determinations would have to be made in the order of movement, and then only the second-declarer would really have the option of an interrupting counterspell.
Original D&D -- The dispell magic spell says, "Unless countered, this spell will be effective in dispelling enchantments of most kinds...", clearly referring to the possibility that the dispel itself fails its percentage-based success roll. There is no other indication that the spell can be used in an interrupting manner.
Basic/Expert D&D Rules -- The Moldvay-written dispel magic spell uniquely does not include the word "counter" at all. The phrasing here is "remove spell effects", and again there is no hint of interrupting usage whatsoever. Note that in these rules and all those below, there are clearly distinguished cycles where one side and then the other gets to act and cast spells, etc. (spells are definitely not cast together in one phase as in Chainmail/OD&D).
AD&D 1st Ed. -- This version of the spell clearly states, "It will destroy magic potions (they are treated as 12th level for purposes of this spell), remove spells cast upon persons or objects, or counter the casting of spells in the area of effect." So that third clause seems to indicate something different, but it might be interpreted as either an interruption effect, or simply use against area-effecting magic (as opposed to persons or objects; which is how I read it in those days). This language is expanded in 2E, so I will address it further below.
AD&D 2nd Ed. -- Dispel magic here includes the description, "First, it removes spells and spell-like effects (including device effects and innate abilities) from creatures or objects. Second, it disrupts the casting or use of these in the area of effect at the instant the dispel is cast. Third, it destroys magical potions (which are treated as 12th level for purposes of this spell)." Now clearly, the second case is an interrupting-type ability, and it's a legitimate interpretation that 1E might have meant the same thing.
However, a problem arises: both versions of AD&D require that spellcasters specially commit to spells to be cast at the start of the round, before initiative is rolled, and before they have any knowledge of what the enemy is doing (including enemy spellcasters). So it would seem that a caster would need to cast dispel magic blindly, not even knowing if the enemy was casting any spells at all in that round, quite likely wasting the dispel. Moreover, dispel has a casting time of 3 segments (6 for clerics), so technically there's all kinds of ways that the enemy could finish their casting and avoid the interrupt even if dispel is being cast in the same round. Thus it seems like an almost impossible tactic, to burn off a dispel while simply crossing one's fingers that the enemy is in fact casting some unknown magic that round (and one that doesn't complete too fast).
D&D 3rd Ed. -- In what I might interpret as a reaction to the difficulties surrounding the AD&D rule above, 3E creates an entire 7-paragraph rule subsection just for counterspells. (See the prior "Spells Through The Ages" blog for complete text; link). In short, interrupts are specifically allowed and supported; but they require that the interested wizard target one specific enemy caster in the round, and only if that target does cast a spell can the wizard potentially interrupt with a dispel or other counterspell. In all other cases (target does not cast; anyone but the target casts; target casts a niggling spell unworthy of a dispel) the wizard has simply wasted their action for the round, an enormous loss of effectiveness. While this seems at least conceivably feasible at first glance, the disadvantage is so keen that I rarely saw it get used in 3E (excepting the case where the whole party was fighting one lone enemy caster, such that the party wizard could safely devote his or her action to locking down the one enemy's magic, while the rest of the party beat them physically).
Conclusions -- The interrupting-style "counter-spell" in D&D went from unmentioned (0E, BX), to vaguely implied (1E), to fully but problematically allowed (2E, 3E). It's conceivably workable in the Chainmail/0E rules with its shared missile phase (granted various interpretations and arguments), but seemingly not really feasible in the separated turn sequences of BX-1-2E. The 3E tried to solve this problem, but in a way that I still found lacking.
Moreover, every time I try to wrestle with the explicit 3E-style counterspell, it aggravates me that this spellcasting uniquely corrupts the turn sequence with interrupting actions. In my last game the countering usage came up again (the language is in my Book of Spells v.1, descended from the 3E SRD), and what happened next is that I forgot that the player's action was used up when we came back around the table of 9 players. Therefore, granted (1) the effective absence of counterspells in classic 0E-1E-BX, (2) the unique corrupting effect on the turn sequence, (3) the enormous amount of text required in later attempts to make it work, and (4) the fact that no version of the game really successfully made it a workable option, I've recently decided to strike it from my game (and my Book of Spells description for dispel magic).
How much would a ruling like that affect the games at your table?
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I think if I wanted the effect, I'd just have a spell that has a duration of one round (or a few) and makes the target unable to cast spells. Basically, a spell that explicitly works the way Silence is often interpreted to work.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think I'd go with some very short (as you say, maybe 1 round) "magic shield" defense, a la globe of invulnerability. You do see a lot of art where one wizard shoots energy, and an opposing wizard blocks it with a magic shield mid-flight. That's one thing D&D's never simulated.
DeleteI would love to use counter spells in the game, it sounds so cool. I have never heard of a good implementation though, I was so hoping you had a clever rule for this.
ReplyDeleteWhen we played AD&D I did not realize you could use dispel magic that way, so I never used it.
I think of all the versions 1st edition is the one I would use. Action wise it’s no worse than 3.x, you waste your whole round to counter spell. Rules wise it’s the least confusing, or destructive to the flow, if you want to do it, you just do it on your round. The down side is you have to waste your spell. Perhaps rather than use a spell, add a counter spell ability to the wizard, some sort of opposed roll with a reasonable chance of success.
The problem is, it seems cool, but faced with some chance of stopping an opposing action (and maybe completely wasting your turn), versus doing something positive yourself, the latter sounds better in most cases. When you throw in the fact that most people don’t play a wizard to hang back and be passive/reactive, you end up with a mechanic that never gets used.
I fully agree, it sounds cool at first blush. Like there's some kind of fancy "wizard battle" mini-game you can play out -- but in the existing turn sequence I've never seen it work. Better to just discard it, I think now.
DeleteYou could have a system where a wizard can counter spell by casting (any) one of their spells on their turn. Then the target of the spell, or all casters in a radius if you prefer, have their spells cast that round potentially countered. This would require the wizard to win initiative (which I like), so it would work better in a system where you roll every round. If you don’t roll every round, you could have it stay active until the wizard goes again the next round. I don’t think I would inform everyone what the wizard casts when they cast counter spell (not sure if you do that, when an opposing wizard casts something with no immediate effect do you inform opposing wizards/characters what they cast?)
ReplyDeleteThe exact power of the counter spell could be handled a number of ways. It counters a spell of it’s level or it’s level + d6-2. Maybe it counters spells of it’s level or less and spells up to twice it’s level have their saves made easier, or a save completely eliminates effects rather than ½ damage. Maybe spells of the same school work better as counters etc etc etc.
Not sure anyone would take advantage of it, but it would be a simple mechanic, with no interrupts. On their turn the wizard tells you they are countering, scratches off a spell, tells you the level of the spell, and they are done.
Not sure what in game effect it would have, it would give all the apprentice wizards something to do through. This ends up looking more like a shield than the wizard duel of the source material.
Interesting. One problem is that as DM I'd be in a position of having information that I'd have to pretend I don't have to decide on NPC actions fairly (i.e., powerful spell or negligible thing).
DeleteGood question: I don't directly state the spell an NPC is using, but I do speak out loud coded "magic words" on the casting. To date no one's deciphered it, shhhhh... :-)
AD&D works fine. You cast a Dispel Magic at the enemy group to remove their spell protections, destroy their potions, and as a side benefit you also cause casting to fail if it hasn't gone off yet.
ReplyDeleteIn the same way that fireball also destroys things and stops spells being cast, it's just that the main effect is removing protective spells rather than doing damage.
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I handle Wizard duals with retroactive counters. If you're hit with something you don't like, immediately dedicate your next action to casting it's opposite, a barrier spell, resistance, or a dispel. Thematically, the enemy Fireball hangs in the air as your Cone of Cold battles it into submission.
Anyone who gets out of range of the counter effect before it's finished casting suffers the original effect as normal. Self-only spells used as counters only save yourself, not any other targets, and so on.
Well... in principle the effect you get sounds great and is very attractive indeed. However, my distaste for retroactive effects wins out in the end (and managing them with large numbers of players at the table).
DeleteIt's an interesting interpretation that 1E dispel magic might get all of those effects at once, I'm more accustomed to interpreting it as countering just one single effect per casting (following the "or" connector in the text).
Note that there isn't even any description in AD&D/D&D/"Basic" of a Magic-User even being able to determine what spell is being cast! In fact, that information would potentially be very useful to the party, assuming they were able to react in the time period it takes to finish the spell.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, counter-spells don't really feel like a D&D-like concept to me. If D&D had been written with a Mana/SpellPoint system, I could see that an elegant numeric system could be used to rule on spell/counter-spell efficacy. But Gygax seems to be very anti spell point - probably because his model was Jack Vance's Dying Earth series.
Actually, saying that, maybe it might be worth scouring the Dying Earth stories to find an example of a counter-spell being used, and use that as a good ruling!
I agree, those are all good points. And actually, I don't recall a single example of that happening in the Vance stories. Although clearly Gygax did include something like that in Chainmail...
DeleteIn case you cannot extend the discussion here to 4e/5e, due to maintenance considerations:
ReplyDeleteIn 5e, Counterspell has been split out from Dispel Magic as a separate spell. Dispel Magic removes effects that are in place, counterspell counters spells as they are being cast. Clerics do not typcially get access to Counterspell on their spell list, only to Dispel Magic.
Counterspell (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Counterspell) has a range of 60 feet there, and can only be used against a creature you see casting a spell.
The mechanism used for timing Counterspell in 5e is the "reaction". Each character can take one reaction per round, any time in the round, including in response to actions of other combatants. The casting time for Counterspell is a "reaction", not an "action" as for most spells (the other common example for this is the Shield spell, in reaction to being hit).
This means a character can use their normal action to cast their own spell, and then, as a reaction to another caster casting their spell, cast a Counterspell against that spell. Note that if the opponent caster also has memorized Counterspell, he then can counter the counterspell using his own reaction to do so, and forcing through his orginal spell. As each caster only can take one reaction each round, this typically ends the counterspell duel.
In 5e action economy is a big consideration, and as Counterspell effectively allows you to cast two spells in a turn instead of one, it is widely considered one of the most powerful spells on level three, if not the most powerful one, ahead even of Fireball (I personally think Fireball is still better, as it can be used in more situations).
In 5e, you can repeatedly cast any spell you have memorized. A duel between two spell casters, one of which has counterspell and the other not, means the caster with counterspell can negate the opponents spellcasting entirely while bringing his own spells to bear. The outcome of this is left as an exercise to the reader.
Opinion on how much fun this contributes varies. It can take out the excitement form a climactic fight against an evil cleric, but it also can lead to dramatic exchanges with enemy wizards, especially as you can use it to counter higher level spells. In such cases, the PCs may want to bait the enemy caster to burn their reaction on a shield spell by attacking them first.
Would you want something like that in your game? From my experience playing with a working version of counterspell in the game both as a DM and as a player, I'm not sure if it brings enough positive excitement to be worth the worry.
It does create extra work for the DM as caster-type bosses in a world where this exists must plan countermeasures like invisibility, positioning themselves out of range, or using Counterspell themselves.
Thanks for sharing that! It's an interesting take, I can see how that would interact that way in the 5E action economy.
DeleteBut: Is that in some expansion book? I can't see any reference to it in my copy of the 5E PHB. (Our The Big Bad 5E tournament show on YouTube played with core-rules only, and I never ran into it there at any point.)
Hi Delta, Counterspell is a core spell in 5E. My PHB printing from August 2014 has it on page 228. It also is part of the 5E SRD:
ReplyDelete"Counterspell
3rd-level abjuration
Casting Time:1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
Range:60 feet
Components:Somatic
Duration:Instantaneous
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used."
Or are you asking about reactions? That's on page 190 PHB:
"Reactions
Certain Special Abilities, Spells, and situations allow you to take a Special action called a Reaction. A Reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on Your Turn or on someone else’s. The opportunity Attack is the most Common type of Reaction.
When you take a Reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn. If the Reaction interrupts another creature’s turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the Reaction."
At the risk of getting into esoterica of 5E mechanics that I suspect are not very interesting for the audience here: when you are casting a spell with a bonus action (p. 202 PHB; another type action you can get on top of your normal action), "You can't cast another spell for the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action". This limitation leads some to believe that you can only cast one non-cantrip spell per round. It is however specific to bonus actions, and does not affect casting spells as reactions. You are free to cast any spell, and then cast Counterspell with your reaction, on your own turn, or another combatant's turn. Conceivably, you could even cast and then counter your own spell.
Here's a link to DM David, whom I think you referred to before, about him rating Counterspell as one of the four most annoying spells in 5E: https://dmdavid.com/tag/how-new-changes-created-the-4-most-annoying-spells-in-dungeons-dragons/
The only opportunity cost on Counterspell you have in 5E is the slot and not conserving your reaction for Shield or an opportunity attack.
Do you give Counterspell to the evil high level wizard the PCs will face? If the party wizard does not have it himself, this can spell TPK by countering the party's emergency escape teleport. If the party wizard has it, you may need to, just to level the playing field.
Thank you for that! I can see that would actually works better/more cleanly with the built-in and explicit 5E reaction mechanic. (Given the still-aggravating aspects of the effect.)
DeleteI must admit that Paul & I got hung up repeatedly on last season The Big Bad on the issue of the bonus/cantrip-with-1-action rule issue. I think it was worse in the pre-taping playtests, but even in-show I had to double-check myself mentally once or twice. It's easy to trip up over (for me, at least).