tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post8262602552918411825..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Slings and Arrows and Outrageous FormulaeDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78027176995196558392017-06-20T22:31:34.896-04:002017-06-20T22:31:34.896-04:00Scott, thanks for the link to that thesis by Eric ...Scott, thanks for the link to that thesis by Eric Skov, that's amazing!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-40556293769030726512017-06-18T08:56:29.520-04:002017-06-18T08:56:29.520-04:00Thanks for posting those video links. Fun to watch...Thanks for posting those video links. Fun to watch. A couple of observations.<br /><br />When the second/better slinger in the first video hits from 40 feet, he does so by arcing his shot. This would track with the Holmes Basic rule (page 20, third paragraph, added by Gygax, http://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2014/01/part-15-hits-with-arrows.html) of disallowing slinging except in high roofed areas. But then neither of the slingers in the first video are demonstrating good form (there is a masters thesis online which covers slinging techniques pretty well: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=anthrotheses), so I don’t think a high roof should be necessary.<br /><br />The guy in the second video is compact, but note that the optimal technique, which he is using, calls for full extension of the arm. Pause the video at 1:46. His arm is fully extended, and then the sling extends even farther out. That’s about 5' feet without taking the rest of him into account. So as compact as his sidearm delivery is, it still doesn’t seem to argue for allowing slinging by someone marching or standing beside another in a ten foot wide space.<br /><br />Nothing conclusive here, but it may be that sling use in the tight quarters of a dungeon is appropriate mainly for a solo adventurer or when the fighting breaks out in an open space. Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11109361392288271963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-6762718233955324892017-06-13T02:21:51.806-04:002017-06-13T02:21:51.806-04:00I think that you could model this by having a diff...I think that you could model this by having a difference between someone who starts with a sling proficiency (training since birth) and a PC who picks it up later (newbie).<br /><br />e.g. Rules Cyclopedia has levels up to grand master (GM) giving a +8 attack bonus.<br />So: <br />Start with any missile weapon proficiency: 0 initial penalty; GM +8.<br /><br />Pick up sling after 1st lvl: -8 initial penalty; GM +0.<br />Pick up bow after 1st lvl: -4 initial penalty; GM +4.<br />Pick up crossbow after 1st lvl: 0 initial penalty; GM +8.<br /><br />So slings are hard to learn, bows are easier and crossbows are easiest of all. <br />If you want to be the best with the sling or the bow you have to come from a culture that grows up with that weapon. Otherwise, learn the crossbow.jbeltmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02264520619277158883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-54187869189073576192017-06-04T20:35:05.568-04:002017-06-04T20:35:05.568-04:00I lean towards agreement with 1d30 on having Thiev...I lean towards agreement with 1d30 on having Thieves use slings for literary and legacy tradition reasons. It feels like it makes sense for city-bred thieves. (Although then likewise that expectation makes it tougher to fit thieves into outdoor adventures.)<br /><br />I do like the idea of organization giving ability access, but I've never made it happen in practice in my games.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-37811336304157070832017-06-04T16:56:29.088-04:002017-06-04T16:56:29.088-04:00I'm not a fan of class-based weapon restrictio...I'm not a fan of class-based weapon restrictions. Historically, crossbows were used because they were so easy to use and I allow any class to use them. <br /><br />However, even though slings with stones are not terribly effective against medium or heavy armor, nor helmets, in a town or city they would be much more effective.<br /><br />I could see a thieves' guild specifically training their members in the use of a sling for several reasons, starting with:<br /><br />#1 you always have access to a weapon as long as you can get a strip of cloth and a rock.<br /><br />#2 you are never caught with a weapon.<br /><br />I like the use of feats to grant special features in the use of a weapon. So proficiency in a sling is being able to use it, but having the feat means that you are an expert in its use, and can use it to its fullest potential.<br /><br />One of the things that I have in my campaign, is that joining an organization can give you access to things that others don't. Specific spells, for example, or in this case, access to a Slinger feat. Since joining an organization isn't easy (especially something like the thieves' guild), and you don't necessarily get access to special knowledge until you've reached a certain level within the organization (not character level), I can control access to the feat. Which also means a lot of NPCs can have it, but it's harder for the PCs to get it.<br /><br />It's another way to gain new skills and such in a campaign that has very slow level advancement.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09267051945521881482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-66367672783754774532017-06-04T14:31:55.816-04:002017-06-04T14:31:55.816-04:00One thing we've lost since 1E D&D (lost sp...One thing we've lost since 1E D&D (lost specifically in Unearthed Arcana I believe) is Thieves being unable to use bows and crossbows, leaving only the sling as a long-range weapon. I think this was primarily due to Lankhmar guildhouse thieves favoring the weapon. I just really like it. And it makes going multi-class as Fighter/Thief a lot more meaningful. Now giving Magic-Users the sling is just dumb. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-67564449732332241492017-06-04T14:18:35.570-04:002017-06-04T14:18:35.570-04:00Some important facts about slings:
Their effectiv...Some important facts about slings:<br /><br />Their effectiveness was with sling bullets. Just picking up stones are only useful against unarmored individuals and have a much shorter range. They do not have the penetrating power of sling bullets.<br /><br />In order to get sling bullets, you have to be in a region that regularly uses slings.<br /><br />Crossbows were replacing bows and slings because they require almost no training to use effectively. The idea of a sling as an exotic weapon in the late middle ages makes sense.<br /><br />Good slingers and, for that matter, good archers were trained from an early age. That's great as long as they don't die. Japanese kamikaze pilots arose out of the same problem - their good pilots had already been shot down. A poor pilot doesn't make a good dogfighter, so aim your plane at the target. <br /><br />Crossbowmen didn't take years to train. Their effectiveness penetration-wise wasn't really much different than a bow. While they had potentially higher draw weights, they had a much shorter draw, and used lighter ammunition. That meant they fired their ammunition at a higher speed - they could fly farther with a straight trajectory - but their penetration power was less or the same due to the lower mass. A heavy crossbow with a cranequin could take as long as 30 to 60 seconds to reload. In my campaign crossbows that heavy do have a better penetration, but they are usually used once in any given combat.<br /><br />Back to the sling - in my campaign, getting the full benefits would require a feat. And because you gain those benefits only when you have access to sling bullets, it's not as useful as many other fighting styles. In most cases, it's only somebody who has a particular background (shepherd) that might have it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09267051945521881482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-19161641904491712592017-06-04T14:07:49.864-04:002017-06-04T14:07:49.864-04:00Thanks for the reference!Thanks for the reference!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-65848975987244037712017-06-04T14:07:24.241-04:002017-06-04T14:07:24.241-04:00Hmmm, nice analysis. My prior study had me thinkin...Hmmm, nice analysis. My prior study had me thinking that size, stationary, and range bonuses should all be larger than 3E numbers (<a href="http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2014/04/a-model-of-archery-for-d.html" rel="nofollow">link</a>). Which in this case winds up mostly canceling out. That is, for OD&D: AC 9 - 8 (size) + 6 (stationary) = 7. For a target on the d20 of: 20 - 7 (AC) + 8 (long range) - 1 (1st level) = 20. So in my current system having the Specialization feat or being 3rd level would model this guy. Which is to say that no extra sling penalty is needed, hmm. (Thanks so much for pointing out the 17-of-20 statistic in the video!)<br /><br /><br />Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-74772927592056903002017-06-04T13:51:02.336-04:002017-06-04T13:51:02.336-04:00I kind of like how that folds into the system. One...I kind of like how that folds into the system. One problem that occurs (noted above) is how I don't give a feat until 4th level as a Fighter. So it would rule out squads of thieves and normal soldiers using them. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-32430662974297676142017-06-04T13:42:03.428-04:002017-06-04T13:42:03.428-04:00Hmmm, it's an interesting observation that I a...Hmmm, it's an interesting observation that I already have "Weapon Specialization" as a feat in OED (gives +1 to hit, +2 damage with any one weapon; not exactly the same as the halfling sling bonus). So in theory slings could have a penalty that get offset by that. Although it would still be sub-optimal for any Thieves or Fighters below 4th. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-12901122139384617172017-06-02T10:43:31.441-04:002017-06-02T10:43:31.441-04:00Another reason why a PC might use a sling is if th...Another reason why a PC might use a sling is if the background of the character, randomly generated or chosen by the player, included some sub-optimal skills. A PC might have been a shepherd before going to sea and being captured and forced into basket-weaving. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-30914917823559058182017-06-02T10:40:57.621-04:002017-06-02T10:40:57.621-04:00I agree. In a game where you increment bonus to hi...I agree. In a game where you increment bonus to hit in specific weapons through weapon mastery (rather than better to-hit chances for all weapons known every time you gain a level) you could just start Slings out with -6 to hit and Bows with -4. <br /><br />Why would anyone use a Sling? That's a very different question from Why would a PC use a Sling?<br /><br />A slinger would be someone who trained from youth with a sling because it's the only available weapon. We all carry skills from our youths that aren't terribly valuable now that we have access to different tools. A boy shepherd needs to be able to sling rocks at wolves but there's no way he can afford a bow. <br /><br />As for the bow / crossbow situation, I feel there should be some synergy in skill but maybe only 50% (so if you have Bow 8 it counts as Crossbow 4 by default unless you have higher Crossbow skill also). Sling feels like it would synergize instead with thrown weapons. <br /><br />Why would a PC use a sling? Maybe because the sling is incredibly cheap and ammo is plentiful. The sling is incredibly concealable. It can be fashioned by hand in an afternoon without tools in someone's room at the inn. For an untrained person maybe throwing rocks is a better choice, but if you can drop points into sling skill for +2 to hit it should even out with throwing. This is especially worthwhile if your system has increasing learning costs, so someone could rise from Bow +7 to Bow +8 and gain one to hit bonus, or else spend those points to gain +0 to +1 in eight different weapons and gain more versatility. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-25599154030050041982017-06-01T20:42:42.319-04:002017-06-01T20:42:42.319-04:00Make the sling an exotic weapons, like the flail o...Make the sling an exotic weapons, like the flail or the double-bladed whatever. Requires special training to avoid hitting yourself, shooting backwards, etc. <br /><br />I, for one, do not use fumbles in combat; with these exotic weapons, I might (natural 1 equals disaster).Eric Diazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09196219031821755216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-23733473204365697302017-06-01T17:47:39.881-04:002017-06-01T17:47:39.881-04:00Dragon 268 has a list of historical alternative sl...Dragon 268 has a list of historical alternative slings and dart throwing devices.Ed Augerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04219049440129271018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-42466673247107858762017-06-01T09:09:43.486-04:002017-06-01T09:09:43.486-04:00Nice analysis and it fits with my idea with slings...Nice analysis and it fits with my idea with slings just shifting the bonus by -2. I mean: slings -2 to hit, bows +0 to hit and crossbows +2 to hit.G. B. Verashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07321019711309446662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-66463126769831100442017-06-01T00:33:05.793-04:002017-06-01T00:33:05.793-04:00From the second video above, here is what I glean,...From the second video above, here is what I glean, in 3rd edition lingo: Watermelon is AC 12 (cat sized, stationary, and unarmored). Watermelon was at 25 meters, but call it 25 yards. Since it was a challenge, I take that to be long range (-5 on attack roll). Slinger hit the watermelon 3 of 17 attempts. That's a roll of 18-20 on d20. So at short range he would have hit on 13-20. If he were equivalent to a first level fighter with average dex (+1 on attack roll) then he should only need to roll an 11 to hit an AC 12 creature at short range. So the difficulty of using a sling, even for this proficient slinger, accounts for a further -2 attack penalty. Impose a -2 penalty on all sling attack rolls. Maybe halfling racial bonus eliminates that penalty. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10600461324047514737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-50747817876567692602017-05-31T11:44:16.864-04:002017-05-31T11:44:16.864-04:00You could give expert slingers a to-hit bonus. Spe...You could give expert slingers a to-hit bonus. Specifically, the one mentioned as a racial bonus for hobbits in Greyhawk. The bonus is clearly cultural, not biological, so my thinking is that it should be available to characters of any race if they put in the time to learn (or if they come from a human culture that practices slinging and learned it during childhood, with DM approval). The cost of gaining this bonus in play could be either a fighter feat (using Delta's house rules) or some kind of 'proficiency slot' scheme like what is used in AD&D.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-5411017523044960382017-05-31T08:56:48.305-04:002017-05-31T08:56:48.305-04:00So I have been thinking on this a day or two, shor...So I have been thinking on this a day or two, short of repeating other folk's good ideas: What if the sling normally provides the "D&D standard" poorer ROF, range, damage. In order to "unlock" the better/historically accurate sling values, you have to "specialize" in the sling. OED already has Fighter Feats, so add "Sling Master"?Baquieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357103428591599364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-25324804339775657212017-05-31T08:26:10.438-04:002017-05-31T08:26:10.438-04:00That is interessting but I prefer to give a bonus ...That is interessting but I prefer to give a bonus to hit for bows/crossbows so I can emulate the need of less training (ie less levels) to accurate use of bows/crossbows.G. B. Verashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07321019711309446662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-1491637699447988752017-05-31T00:59:58.814-04:002017-05-31T00:59:58.814-04:00Yeah, I was going to bring up armor penetration as...Yeah, I was going to bring up armor penetration as well...not sure how a sling would hold up against 12th century armor. Even though the sling had pretty much phased out (as described in the quoted article), not sure if it would have held up to the changing "protection technology."<br /><br />For my part, I prefer to just look at it as another weapon capable of dealing a mortal wound (D6 damage). There are pros AND cons to carrying a weapon with a visible "intimidation factor" (like a bow or crossbow).JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-44622200239616519362017-05-31T00:34:41.642-04:002017-05-31T00:34:41.642-04:00I suppose one simple, cheesy way we could model th...I suppose one simple, cheesy way we could model the proficiency issue is just by fighter level. Like: Normal men can use crossbows, 1st-level fighters can use self bows, 2nd-level fighters can use slings. Some world-building issues with that, but it's a thought. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-73499609426821844362017-05-31T00:33:18.332-04:002017-05-31T00:33:18.332-04:00Right now I don't know. :-)Right now I don't know. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-38763165511149494762017-05-31T00:32:56.073-04:002017-05-31T00:32:56.073-04:00That's great! Thank you!That's great! Thank you!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-10272320183029499802017-05-31T00:30:27.353-04:002017-05-31T00:30:27.353-04:00Thanks for the comment. A large part of the motiva...Thanks for the comment. A large part of the motivation for this post is in fact re-evaluating my rule for thief missile weapons. However, I'd be pretty loathe to take slings away from thieves (they were consistently given to them in AD&D, and they reflect the Thieves' Guild in Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.com