tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post8173997611906090136..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: XP: The Big Switch, Pt. 1Deltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-5206673043612578612016-10-12T23:37:39.284-04:002016-10-12T23:37:39.284-04:00^ Glad you saw it, Michael!^ Glad you saw it, Michael!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-58399179885222644872016-09-29T10:53:48.436-04:002016-09-29T10:53:48.436-04:00You know, I'm glad I read this thread, even th...You know, I'm glad I read this thread, even thought it is 9 months later. I never thought of the scaling down vs. the increased XP requirements like that. I have been scaling down, and you present a really good reason why not to do that. Thank you.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-51868081528514443602016-06-25T23:25:26.795-04:002016-06-25T23:25:26.795-04:00^ And I do agree with that, too. :-)^ And I do agree with that, too. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-86731323640203179062016-06-25T23:19:46.634-04:002016-06-25T23:19:46.634-04:00^ Right, totally agree with that. ^ Right, totally agree with that. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-39096213616577512462016-06-25T00:39:13.762-04:002016-06-25T00:39:13.762-04:00When I look at the XP scaling business in isolatio...When I look at the XP scaling business in isolation it seems like a sensible thing to do. But I think it's "double-dipping" as it were because XP requirements increase exponentially anyway. Sure, the level 1 fighter "only" has to kill 20 orcs to gain a level, but the level 5 fighter would have to kill 160 orcs. That's *eight* times as many already, more than XP scaling would call for. (Besides, killing 160 orcs is not actually THAT easy unless the DM has them all bunched up in one place, ready to receive a fireball.)Peter Fröhlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03688076015831464616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-418492020508744392016-06-25T00:26:16.667-04:002016-06-25T00:26:16.667-04:00Sorry that I have no useful information to contrib...Sorry that I have no useful information to contribute, but this little exchange reminded me just how much I loathe AD&D2. (Apparently Dan and I share the impression that AD&D2 is Zeb's worst RPG? No offense of course, it must have been a horrible job to begin with!) I really should have my head examined for playing AD&D2 every week for 3+ years now. But I guess that just goes to show that playing SOMETHING is much more important than what you're playing...Peter Fröhlichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03688076015831464616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36272570024833071562016-01-11T13:57:40.675-05:002016-01-11T13:57:40.675-05:00Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot mor...Thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot more sense now! That's also a good house rule, I would probably have come up with something similar.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-47334270522515056482016-01-10T15:49:25.807-05:002016-01-10T15:49:25.807-05:00There is record keeping, sure, but it's easily...There is record keeping, sure, but it's easily managed by having one or two players use laptops/tablets present. These days it's not much of a stretch to expect that players have some kind of mobile tech available. It also helps keep players engaged in the fight - it's in everyone's interest to keep the DM honest.<br /><br />I have had problems with players taking a "self destructive" approach but they tend to stop when they realize that I'm not as forgiving when it comes to healing. Basically, it takes time - like, a lot of time - to heal naturally, even given optimal conditions, and only clerics and druids have magical healing (and that's mitigated by a spell system that limits how frequently a caster can regain their spells). In other words, on paper, it seems that the XP rules would let a player advance really fast by subjecting themselves to injury. In practice, this increases the risk that they die. Generally, that's a bad thing...Ozymandiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01065642299277380465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-49532667809880665142016-01-10T05:33:13.781-05:002016-01-10T05:33:13.781-05:00Daniel, I apparently left out a very important bit...Daniel, I apparently left out a very important bit - "...add that many asterisks" is to all the creatures in the encounter, so in your scenario, a lone caster with 8th-level spells would get four asterisks, while in a party of four, all four characters would get one asterisk each.<br /><br />Note that in a party of six, all six characters would still get one asterisk (due to rounding up), so on the one hand, it does reflect that magic-users become harder to handle when they have ablative meat shields to protect them. On the other hand, it doesn't truly account for level - that lone mage would be a 54 HD encounter (level 18 is when 8th-level spellcasting is attained). Put that spellcaster with three level 2 fighters, and the encounter drops to a 36 HD encounter (27 + 3 + 3 + 3), while if the entire party of four was 18th-level, it would be a 108 HD encounter (27 x 4). My house rule was that the total encounter level couldn't be lower than the solo spellcaster, specifically because of edge cases like that.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718188146918003275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-30377596695764692942016-01-09T11:12:04.116-05:002016-01-09T11:12:04.116-05:00Right. I'm also a latecomer: I never had OD&am...Right. I'm also a latecomer: I never had OD&D in my hands until 2007 (i.e., first post of this blog), but I liked it so much I switched all my own games over to it. Partly using d6's for monster hit dice and damage (instead of d8's, etc.) was something that seemed immensely more efficient. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-46982014746310941402016-01-09T01:42:26.728-05:002016-01-09T01:42:26.728-05:00That's an interesting system seems like a fair...That's an interesting system seems like a fair amount of record keeping but seems like it could work. Do you use it and what keeps players from masochistically seeking to take damage to gain xp?ligehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00652431558688176341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36302587064298192422016-01-08T22:24:08.685-05:002016-01-08T22:24:08.685-05:00...or we could simply use damage as a guide for aw......or we could simply use damage as a guide for awarding XP.<br /><br />Every 1 point of damage received by a player results in 20xp. Every 1 point of damage dealt by a player results in 10xp. At the end of combat, all players receive an additional XP award equal to the total XP awarded to the group divided equally among the survivors.<br /><br />In other words, the XP discussion, especially across editions, is interesting but only insofar as we actually achieve a better understanding of the game. The only way to know that we've achieved a better understanding is to implement rules that improve the game.Ozymandiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01065642299277380465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-61633998599528965792016-01-08T15:04:24.205-05:002016-01-08T15:04:24.205-05:00Stephen, I'm curious about this part:
"....Stephen, I'm curious about this part:<br /><br />"... take the highest level of spells that can be cast, divide by two, divide by the number of characters in the NPC group, round up, and add that many asterisks."<br /><br />So magic is valued less in a larger group of enemies? At least the way I'm reading it, it would mean that a solitary archmage type NPC who could cast 8th-level spells would have four asterisks, but if he was in a party with three other NPCs then he would only have one asterisk.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-33455354661329698862016-01-08T14:58:45.240-05:002016-01-08T14:58:45.240-05:00It was mostly a revelation to me because I hadn...It was mostly a revelation to me because I hadn't really gone through the OD&D books with a fine-toothed comb; I was born many years too late to have played it when it was current, so when I later read them it was more of a casual read as a source of inspiration. As a result, I didn't catch every nuance; at first blush, the system seems to use only d6 and d20 rolls, or possibly solely d6 rolls if you don't use the alternate combat system. The uses of the other polyhedral dice are tucked away in less obvious places.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-47334205907951704772016-01-08T13:39:09.331-05:002016-01-08T13:39:09.331-05:00Right about the dice, one of the main uses of unus...Right about the dice, one of the main uses of unusual dice in OD&D was monster numbers and treasure types (where there's a lot of d4, d8, d12 mechanics). It's interesting in OD&D Recommended Equipment (Vol-1, p. 5) it suggests a pair each of d4, d8, d12, d20, but "4 to 20 pairs 6-sided dice", so they game initially was very d6-oriented (like for batches of hit dice, and possibly still Chainmail combat mechanics). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-43520436257795136172016-01-08T13:33:50.851-05:002016-01-08T13:33:50.851-05:00Interesting, I never put that system in practice, ...Interesting, I never put that system in practice, nice to hear your experience has been good with it.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-84733754838334557112016-01-07T22:30:47.176-05:002016-01-07T22:30:47.176-05:00The system I've had the best luck with has bee...The system I've had the best luck with has been BECMI's HD* system, which is like a fun house mirror version of the first 3 editions' systems. Special abilities are noted with asterisks after the HD (the most I've seen is 9 asterisks for the Great One, Ruler of All Dragonkind - it already has 40 HD base, so it counts as a 220 HD creature). Each asterisk adds half the creature's hit dice (so a 6+3* troll would count as 10.5 hit dice - 7 for the 6+3 and 3.5 for the *). The total hit dice in the encounter are divided by the total party level. Spellcasters have a big effect - take the highest level of spells that can be cast, divide by two, divide by the number of characters in the NPC group, round up, and add that many asterisks.<br /><br />Ratios of 0.3 to 0.5 are considered a good fight that should be roughly half of all encounters, while .5 to .7 is challenging and .7 to .9 is a quest finale. Lower than .3 is basically a speed bump and higher than .9 runs a risk of TPK.<br /><br />Monster experience uses a more granular version of the Sup 1 chart, starting with "Under 1", "1", and "1+", and then having entries for every number up to 9 with both "X" and "X+," then switching to "9+ to 10," "10+ to 11," etc. It goes up to 21 HD at 2500 XP + 2000 per *, and says each hit die above that is another 250 XP to both categories. XP for gold is explicitly called out all the way through the Rules Cyclopedia.<br /><br />The Sup-1 style XP chart with the balancing system of Adjusted Hit Dice divided by Total Party Level works well for me.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718188146918003275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-87152224719745828802016-01-07T12:42:23.729-05:002016-01-07T12:42:23.729-05:00My thoughts exactly. The only workaround that I...My thoughts exactly. The only workaround that I've thought of in the meantime is that perhaps one could count the level of the encounter as being the highest of any monster present; then the high-level leader types present at a humanoid dwelling would keep the XP gained on a 1-for-1 basis until the party reached very high levels.<br /><br />Also, looking back at Monsters & Treasure, I find it interesting that even then, before the advent of variable hit dice and weapon damage, the use of polyhedral dice was clearly implied by the Number Appearing column. How else could you encounter 2-24 ghouls besides rolling 2d12?Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-83927527021290518532016-01-07T12:21:04.241-05:002016-01-07T12:21:04.241-05:00I think 3E had some great ideas, and I'm a fan...I think 3E had some great ideas, and I'm a fan of Monte Cook's work on Planescape and Call of Cthulhu d20, it just wasn't what I was looking for as a DM. I only had two players out of a stable of 6 to 8 who would have been highly motivated to deal with skill ranks and feats, and one of those two had a tendency to power-game to the point of making it no fun for others (in point of fact, I stopped playing Magic: The Gathering because it was no longer fun when I lost on the fifth turn EVERY TIME). Since 3E had some widely talked-about exploits to create super-characters, I was understandably leery about it.<br /><br />As I alluded to, I started as a player with a hybrid of 1E and 2E, and I personally think that 2E gets an unfairly bad reputation. I thought that most of the changes compared to 1E (since 1E was my baseline) were straight improvements. For example, we've already discussed the issues with the systems for granting XP, but at the end of the day monster XP was greatly simplified compared to 1E - as well as being generally higher at low and high levels. Initiative was similarly straightforward, unlike the notorious mess that is 1E initiative.<br /><br />As I said before, I also enjoyed the tone of the books, making them a pleasant read for me. On top of that, 2E was the first time that I really felt like the information was organized in a reasonably logical manner; while that's not a feature of the system itself, the layout really helped me to master the rules. One of my biggest complaints with White Wolf rulebooks was always the nigh-useless chapter titles, lack of subheadings in the table of contents, and the invariably shoddy index.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-31841322427356369512016-01-07T11:50:58.306-05:002016-01-07T11:50:58.306-05:00I've got to admit that I never like the scalin...I've got to admit that I never like the scaling-down rule and I've never applied it. As a back-of-the envelope calculation for that example, a group of 8 5th-level PCs would get maybe 2000 XP each before the level adjustment, or about 400 each after. Or in other words the design choice is: Should they level up after 8 such encounters, or 40? <br />Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-22246908876693112022016-01-07T11:42:56.409-05:002016-01-07T11:42:56.409-05:00I do really like the fact that 3E EL's specifi...I do really like the fact that 3E EL's specified a logarithmic adjustment for multiple monsters (i.e., twice as many monsters is worth +2 EL), which worked out surprisingly well when I tested it in a simulator. I actually still use that as my measure for creating encounters in OD&D (based on HD), although I haven't yet gotten around to re-testing it for OD&D.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-69867768060813841412016-01-07T11:40:37.712-05:002016-01-07T11:40:37.712-05:00Daniel, those are some great details about the 2E ...Daniel, those are some great details about the 2E system that's helpful for me to learn about better. I must say that while I really like what Zeb C. did in places like the D&D Expert book or Star Frontiers, the way that 2E worked out was really not to my taste. I tend to think that open-ended discursions are not very helpful; the hard and valuable part is crafting a good mechanical system. So in that way I must say that 3E's analysis of numerical pros-and-cons did a better job of opening up the possibilities of the game for me, much as 2E did for you. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-47409757282838487092016-01-06T18:09:02.397-05:002016-01-06T18:09:02.397-05:00I just thought of something rather awkward about t...I just thought of something rather awkward about the OD&D rules as printed; specifically, regarding the "scaling-down" section of the rules. If read literally, that would make it altogether unrewarding to fight humanoids in the wilderness. By the time an adventuring party is reasonably capable of defeating a camp full of 100+ orcs or bandits, they'd only be receiving one-fifth experience from 1st-level monsters and the treasures they guard.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-91064809958650241362016-01-06T18:02:24.467-05:002016-01-06T18:02:24.467-05:00I agree in large part with you Robert, though I do...I agree in large part with you Robert, though I do think CR attempted to do something worthwhile by specifying concrete adjustments when fighting multiple monsters. I do say "attempted," though, because the system given broke down at very low and very high CRs.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-76939066709967480002016-01-06T17:04:59.671-05:002016-01-06T17:04:59.671-05:00My problem with CR is simply that I found it no mo...My problem with CR is simply that I found it no more accurate than using HD for the same thing in AD&D.<br /><br />Although, I suppose that amounts to the same thing.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.com