tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post8082198976260570618..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Ghouls Through the AgesDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78190457359314282362012-03-13T21:38:31.829-04:002012-03-13T21:38:31.829-04:00^ Just got a set off EBay for about twice that, no...^ Just got a set off EBay for about twice that, not too bad. (They're not mint, and may be missing 2 cards, but I'm calling it "close enough" for my purposes.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-61308544642437704542012-03-09T11:47:35.733-05:002012-03-09T11:47:35.733-05:00They were my first GenCon auction win ever -- $9.5...They were my first GenCon auction win ever -- $9.50 for the complete set, what a buy. I had some of them back when I was a kid, but I was notoriously bad at taking care of my stuff.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06885070668246799352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-48923800361918700452012-03-07T20:54:40.446-05:002012-03-07T20:54:40.446-05:00Yeah, the monster cards had an unfortunate history...Yeah, the monster cards had an unfortunate history, despite having some not inconsiderable potential. No one quite knew what to do with them, and because cards were only made for a small subset of monsters, they lacked considerable utility. (If you wanted to use them in conjunction with a module, for example, odds were good you might only have cards for a fraction of the monsters needed.)<br /><br />But the cards were developed between the FF and the MMII, right at the tail end of TSR's golden age, as Grognardia would put it (though I dislike that categorization). I think Frank Mentzer worked on them -- there's a good article from the Dragon which outlines the development process that went into them. Clearly some thought and time went into cleaning up the monster entries for the cards.<br /><br />When 2e AD&D was developed the designers were pretty good about collecting and consolidating the scattered 1e errata, but they missed the monster cards completely. A shame, but not unexpected given the product's unpopularity.Garnfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11286268355315786252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-9363393509234693872012-03-07T20:49:13.195-05:002012-03-07T20:49:13.195-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Garnfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11286268355315786252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-22481555161792136342012-03-07T12:24:06.799-05:002012-03-07T12:24:06.799-05:00Unknown -- That sounds like a great suggestion, ac...Unknown -- That sounds like a great suggestion, actually. I always kind of wanted those monster cards back in the day but never got them. I was even attracted to the idea enough that 25 years ago I took a box of dinosaur flash cards and taped D&D stats to the back of them to use the same way. Even more reason.<br /><br />Paul -- And you have them!? Dammit. Jealous.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-38722382635306702932012-03-07T10:26:15.329-05:002012-03-07T10:26:15.329-05:00@BigFella -- Yeah, the ghouls show up in the first...@BigFella -- Yeah, the ghouls show up in the first half of A1 (the temple part), you guys played the second half (the sewer part).<br /><br />@Delta -- No, definitely just a single round of attacks. Though I also use group initiative, so by both getting surprise and winning initiative the ghouls could get a full 2 rounds of attacks prior to any player actions.<br /><br />@Unknown -- Wow, thanks for that, I'm totally getting out my monster cards when I get home.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06885070668246799352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-81527241559643141382012-03-07T08:51:35.434-05:002012-03-07T08:51:35.434-05:00In my latest campaign I have everything basically ...In my latest campaign I have everything basically at #1 attack per round (maybe super stuff like dragons or monkeys on crack excepted).<br /><br />A few Ghouls can still paralyse a mid level party within 2-3 rounds easy.<br /><br />That is tough enough IMO, especially given their extra turning defense.blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09044744212577744849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-35454257032402995382012-03-07T08:40:49.225-05:002012-03-07T08:40:49.225-05:00I am really enjoying your reviews of different spe...I am really enjoying your reviews of different spells and monsters across editions.<br /><br />The ghoul post reminds me that you might want to take a closer look at the AD&D monster cards. It's not very well known, but the monster cards incorporated errata and new details from the PHB and DMG. (For example, shaman and witch-doctor info for humanoid tribes.) Ever wonder how long ghoul paralysis lasts? I think only the monster card had the "official" answer, for whatever that's worth. <br /><br />Anyway, knowing that you are a close reader of classic D&D texts, I figured you might be interested in this additional reference.Garnfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11286268355315786252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-29523105851262885262012-03-06T02:18:25.992-05:002012-03-06T02:18:25.992-05:00I've blogged on more than one occasion regardi...I've blogged on more than one occasion regarding the viciousness of ghouls (#5 on my Top Ten list of player killing creatures found in Moldvay). I voted to keep 'em as described in B/X: three attacks, no sunlight penalties, susceptible to morale checks.<br /><br />I look at ghouls a little different from "standard;" to me, they are not so much "undead" as rather individuals inhabited by a cannibalistic spirit (think wendigo). They are not mindless corpses, nor negative material plane creatures, but a cleric's turning works because of that evil possessor spirit (like turning a demon, I suppose).<br /><br />In my mind, I picture ghouls as something similar to the "reavers" found in the scifi TV show Firefly.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-65236497355290898132012-03-06T00:22:24.682-05:002012-03-06T00:22:24.682-05:00I use CCB attacks as two claws that, if they both ...I use CCB attacks as two claws that, if they both hit, allow a grab-and-bite, bear-hug-and-bite, rend-and-bite, or bite-and-swallow-whole depending on the critter.<br /><br />In the Ghoul's case it's paralyse-and-bite. Saves vs the loaded bite attack, rather than another attack roll.tussockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01624091727724404725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-30952791614938077602012-03-05T17:43:59.592-05:002012-03-05T17:43:59.592-05:00I nerfed ghouls recently by giving them a claw att...I nerfed ghouls recently by giving them a claw attack; then if that succeeds a bite attack; both of which can paralyze. I'm thinking though, with the ability to be turned, they should be more badass than that.Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-6963154098043168792012-03-05T17:29:26.880-05:002012-03-05T17:29:26.880-05:00Hmm. Maybe my attacks poll should've been &quo...Hmm. Maybe my attacks poll should've been "ghouls should get how many paralysis opportunities per round?". Seems like there's a bunch of ways to get to the "just one" reply.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-27117510896983733192012-03-05T15:14:06.250-05:002012-03-05T15:14:06.250-05:00My inclination would be like RedHobbits', to o...My inclination would be like RedHobbits', to only allow the ghouls to paralyze with a bite if they're being given more than one attack.Joshua Macyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10838733328132877699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-17372748683616908292012-03-05T12:11:08.575-05:002012-03-05T12:11:08.575-05:00Frikkin' Ghouls!
They're an alpha predato...<i>Frikkin' Ghouls!</i><br /><br />They're an alpha predator, as far as 1st level adventurers are concerned. Delta's point about punching above their weight class is so true. <br /><br />Anything with claw/claw/bite is a nasty piece of work. The paralysis makes ghouls a TPK machine. <br /><br />They also provide a strong argument for bringing a cleric along, with turning and cure light wounds as cure for paralysis. <br /><br />If I recall, Paul, I don't think my group who ran A1 ran into the ghouls. Either we avoided it or that wasn't the part of the module you ran for us.BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-5306776344684273162012-03-05T10:47:54.794-05:002012-03-05T10:47:54.794-05:00To me Ghouls have always been the worst of the wor...To me Ghouls have always been the worst of the worst to encounter when you're a low level party. I use abstract combat (d6 for everything) in my current LL game and ghouls keep their three attacks at a d6 of damage each, but only paralyze on a bite. Needless to say my player's adopt a scorched earth penalty when they see or suspect a ghoul infestation.<br /><br />One thing I have been considering, especially given last week's walking dead, is that the Ghoul can rend a target if both claws hit the same target. <br /><br />That works well for me since Ghouls are intentionally terrifying both visually and mechanically. If you'd like to adapt it to something less powerful you can give the ghouls two attacks a round (claws) and if both are against the same target they may follow it up with a bite that has the chance to paralyze.Van Noahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13001103794042256370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-12397953138068033362012-03-05T10:46:08.709-05:002012-03-05T10:46:08.709-05:00^ Hey, good follow-up, thanks for that. For some r...^ Hey, good follow-up, thanks for that. For some reason I misread what you wrote, and thought that both parties lost surprise (among other misreads, it's like I was hallucinating this weekend or something).<br /><br />I also agree that getting caught by surprise by ghouls is epically horrible. You probably weren't playing by the AD&D rule where (based on surprise die difference) you might get 1, 2, or even 3 or 4 surprise rounds to attack before the opponent can respond? [DMG p. 61] That can happen with ghouls in T1-4 and ick, it's hideous.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-61801459848619413042012-03-05T09:59:43.496-05:002012-03-05T09:59:43.496-05:00That should read "friend-turned-ghoul".That should read "friend-turned-ghoul".Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06885070668246799352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-7251848198074203332012-03-05T09:57:51.013-05:002012-03-05T09:57:51.013-05:00I don't think it was so much the ability to tu...I don't think it was so much the ability to turn or not turn (as the Slow spell I thought was just as good a tactic against them), but rather ability to win surprise and initiative. Ghouls I've found are something of a glass cannon. With three attacks per round each with a chance to paralyze that's a deadly attack (though in practice I've sort of house-ruled that no matter how many hits they get in, at the end of the round the victim need only make one save). On the other hand with just 2 HD (averaging 8 hp each), against a party of level 5-7s they pretty much go down in one hit. So that particular battle in the A-series is really all about who gets the first hits in.<br /><br />Similar to troglodytes, I rather like the 3-attacks and 2 HD combination. I think glass cannon style monsters make for a pretty exciting fight, which I enjoy far too much to remove. One of the most memorable battles in my campaign was a fight gone wrong against a couple ghouls. One player died due to being force-fed a poison potion (they thought it might be healing) while paralyzed. Another had to be abandoned to escape, which in turn lead to an awesome rescue mission where the party had to kill the friend-turned-kill and drag his corpse back in town all while under the time crunch dictated by Raise Dead.<br /><br />That said, I think that fight in the second half of A-1 is way too swingy for a "fair tournament", if such a thing is what you're after.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06885070668246799352noreply@blogger.com