tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post6560116553030122720..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Castle Construction TimesDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-50456678088760355462020-03-07T11:33:33.038-05:002020-03-07T11:33:33.038-05:00Thanks so much for the kind words! Late hits are a...Thanks so much for the kind words! Late hits are always fair game here. :-) Great points about the benefits to characters being involved with the construction. <br /><br />Also thanks for the reminder about Guédelon, I hadn't checked in there in a while. Such a cool project!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-54877654493208543272020-03-07T07:47:31.018-05:002020-03-07T07:47:31.018-05:00I so love all of this, and the responses. Delta y...I so love all of this, and the responses. Delta your blog is a treasure. Hope you don't mind a late hit, I'm catching up on old content that I've missed.<br /><br />The part I especially keyed in on in your post was the personal presence and leadership of King Richard at Gaillard and the priority he placed upon its rapid construction. If the adventurers have some charisma and are willing and able to fund a major work without adventuring, and are willing to take the opportunity cost (and then you have aspects of wandering monsters roaming about in the newly established player stronghold), then it could make a big difference.<br /><br />I think about the keep being built in Hommlet. Rufus and Burne being personally involved probably has an effect, especially if Burne uses his spells to help--Feather Fall to save a hapless laborer who pulls a slip and fall from a wall, Strength to make a laborer strong at the winch to bring up stone, Levitate to raise stones to the top of a wall (depending on how you interpret that spell).<br /><br />But what's intriguing to me is that they're attempting the raising of this fortification with but ten laborers and some assistance from "a few villagers from time to time," and all villagers put in a half day's work once a week.<br /><br />As work has barely begun, this will be the work of some years, in my estimation. Clearly the powers behind its raising, the Viscount of Verbobonc and the Archcleric of Veluna, have many calls upon their power and cannot make it a priority as Richard made Gaillard.<br /><br />I've been following the construction of Guédelon for over a decade and think of the time scale involved. <br /><br />https://www.guedelon.fr/en/LMcFarlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16440670616392415062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-82787450973149654612019-12-06T23:54:54.159-05:002019-12-06T23:54:54.159-05:00Bunkers as they existed emerged as a defense again...Bunkers as they existed emerged as a defense against artillery.<br /><br />Stone-to-mud and vice versa would at best improve your construction times.<br />MicroBalroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09620334655679046347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-75656909348559799612019-11-19T09:55:04.840-05:002019-11-19T09:55:04.840-05:00This one I fall in the other direction on. I want ...This one I fall in the other direction on. I want my world to have medieval-style castles, therefore rock to mud must be interpreted a bit differently. <a href="https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2017/01/spells-through-ages-transmute-rock-to.html" rel="nofollow">See here</a> (esp. the last section) for more. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-66952737596803077832019-11-18T10:22:52.189-05:002019-11-18T10:22:52.189-05:00rock to mud cement. Just sayin'... Castles ten...rock to mud cement. Just sayin'... Castles tend to start looking more like bunkers circa 20th century. Structured Answerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16099134783225642045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36223042869426223752019-10-28T11:19:15.283-04:002019-10-28T11:19:15.283-04:00That total of 5916 pounds for Gaillard is also ext...That total of 5916 pounds for Gaillard is also extremely close to being exactly half of the total actual cost. It would be interesting to see if that relationship holds for other castles built under similar circumstances.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-45229884815543493402019-10-28T09:42:44.310-04:002019-10-28T09:42:44.310-04:00Totally spectacular work. Incredibly impressive, I...Totally spectacular work. Incredibly impressive, I'm convinced!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-43251496788153264232019-10-28T02:00:09.308-04:002019-10-28T02:00:09.308-04:00Thanks!
I think I finally cracked the relationshi...Thanks!<br /><br />I think I finally cracked the relationship here between the variables. I actually did a deep study of Guedelon (prob should make a post on my own blog about that) then applied the rule of thumb to our historical cases. Voila! It works.<br /><br />Here's my general rule of thumb: One man-week of labor is needed for every shilling of castle cost.<br /><br />Construction is actually a little slower than that (about 25% slower) but its close, and suitable for small-scale projects. The proofs below will use a more precise calculation using the more precise but less eloquent rule of thumb: "30 man-weeks of labor are needed for every L of castle cost."<br /><br />Finally, for my examples I am assuming that each household in Domesday contributes two corvee laborers for 40 days each year, or 16 man-weeks (5 days a week -- no work on sundays or feast days, plus some sick days...).<br /><br />I think that Delta's square root formula reflects the fact that wise rulers designed castles that could be built by the available labor force in a reasonable period of time. Castles were built for specific problems: to guard conquered areas, keep unruly nobles in line, etc. You wanted it built in a few years, not for your grandkids. So the designs were probably drawn up with the local manpower and resources in mind. The largest castles are thus found in areas where the population density is highest.<br /><br />Here's some examples:<br />A) Peveril (200L/2 yrs/224 households):<br />Man Weeks Required: 200L * 30 = 6000<br />Man Weeks Available: 224 * 16 = 3584<br />Est Construction Time: 1.7 years<br /><br />B) Dover Keep (4000L/10 yrs/791 households);<br />Man Weeks Required: 4000L * 30 = 120K<br />Man Weeks Available: 791 * 16 = 12.6K<br />Est Construction Time: 9.5 years<br /><br />C) Rochester (3000L/8-10 yrs/532 households):<br />Man Weeks Required: 3000L * 30 = 90K<br />Man Weeks Available: 532 * 16 = 8.5K<br />Est Construction Time: 10.5 years<br /><br />D) Orford (1400L/8 yrs/999 households):<br />Man Weeks Required: 1400L * 30 = 42K<br />Man Weeks Available: 999 * 16 = 16K<br />Est Construction Time: 2.6 years<br /><br />Again, we ask -- Why does Orford take so long?<br /><br />I finally figured this one out!<br />http://www.castlesfortsbattles.co.uk/east/orford_castle.html<br />"...work on Orford Castle commenced in 1165 and the Keep was complete no later than 1167 although work would continue for another 6 years finishing the outer walls and out buildings."<br /><br />If we assume that most of the construction was done at Orford in 2 years (i.e. building the keep proper) then the work in the previous posts and this one comes out just right.<br /><br />E) RUSH JOB: Gaillard (3400L OD&D cost + 8600L surcharge/2 yrs/0 households):<br />To see how robust our model is, we'll see if it can explain the 8600L surcharge to build Gaillard. To complete this castle with no corvee labor, we need 102K man-weeks of labor (3400L * 30). <br /><br />Unskilled labor around this time was making 2 pennies a day (http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html -- thatchers), or about 1.16 shillings a week. At that rate, the 102K man-weeks costs 5916L (a good chunk of our 8600L surcharges) -- and that's just for the unskilled labor, not accounting for room & board, skilled laborers, etc. The model works fine here too.<br /><br />\\\\<br /><br />On a related note, I feel fairly comfortable generalizing that the cubic yards of material required to build fortified structures equal the cost in L divided by 5. Round towers are more like divide by 8; houses closer to divide by 3. This is useful for estimating the number of tons of stone (one ton or wagonload per cu yd).Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17407530889660573874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-49132006151031937862019-10-22T09:46:41.050-04:002019-10-22T09:46:41.050-04:00That's spectacular! There should probably be a...That's spectacular! There should probably be a supplement or something making use of this analysis. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78500993616401079722019-10-21T21:35:45.384-04:002019-10-21T21:35:45.384-04:00Here's a rough stab at the manpower requiremen... <br />Here's a rough stab at the manpower requirements to build for the BTB (aka cheap) price. Data is from https://opendomesday.org.<br /><br />Peveril Castle, in Hundred of Blackwell (224 households). 3 households local. 200L.<br />Orford Castle, in Hundred of Walshcroft (999 households). 0 households local. 1400L.<br />Rochester Castle, in Hundred of Rochester (39 households, plus 493 in the next hundred inland and upriver of Larkfield). 16 households local. 3000L.<br />Dover Castle, in Hundred of Bewsbery (791 households). 420 households local. 7000L.<br /><br />I've included all the households in the Hundred, which is an administrative subdivision called a "barony" in Ireland. <br /><br />When I graph it, Orford is a clear outlier. That said, there is a loose relationship between having more peasants and finding more expensive castles: <br />Castle Cost = 3.2 x Peasant Households + 922, R2 is .1452<br /><br />Without Orford, there is a near perfect linear relationship between the cost of the castle and the number of households in the hundred:<br />Castle Cost = 12 x Peasant Households - 2326, R2 is 0.997.<br /><br />Finally, our D&D villages are not in households -- they're in people. I assume 5 people per medieval household.<br /><br />That gives us a workable rule of thumb for the local workforce needed (with some rounding) to qualify for cheap construction:<br />Castle Cost in L = 2.4 x Peasants - 2300<br /><br />Or put another way, to figure out how many peasants you need to build a castle on the Delta Timeline and OD&D price point:<br />Peasants Available = (Castle Cost in L + 2300) / 2.4<br /><br />For example, if you have, say 5 villages of 250 villagers (OD&D standard population), that's 1250 villagers. That means you can build a castle up to 700L (42,000 SP) without needing to bring in a hired workforce.<br /><br />42K SP will get you a small to mid-size castle. Anything bigger will require hired labor (which double or trebles the price), or will take longer (I'd imagine a doubling of construction time if the workforce is half the required size). As a concrete example, with 42K you can design:<br />4 x 90 foot castle wall segments (14K)<br />4 x small towers for the corners (18K)<br />1 x Gatehouse with Gate (3K)<br />3 x Buildings (7.5K) -- great hall, barracks and a temple, for example<br /><br />An alternate design could shorten the walls by half, cut the buildings, and put a keep in the middle or on a corner.<br /><br />Clearly OD&D envisions larger castles than this: A "modest" paladin's castle is described as having a cap of 200K in cost. But this is in line with real world data.<br />Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17407530889660573874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-7267795208238435072019-10-15T01:47:21.380-04:002019-10-15T01:47:21.380-04:00Holy cow, that's flat-out amazing! Thank you s...Holy cow, that's flat-out amazing! Thank you so much for that added data & analysis! Completely invaluable. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-67709141301249942362019-10-14T22:23:27.212-04:002019-10-14T22:23:27.212-04:00CONCLUSIONS
- The formula given seems to work for ...CONCLUSIONS<br />- The formula given seems to work for "typical" construction, or at least be in the ballpark.<br />- The formula probably works when corvee labor is available for the job with minimal hired workers.<br />- Use of a hired (vs. local) labor force seems to be a major cost driver. Edward's Welsh castles were "rush jobs" and had to use imported labor. You can see the impact that causes on the cost directly with Beaumaris. We showed there that at least 2/3 of the cost (3500L the first summer, 3500L more spread over the next four summers) were due to labor. We also showed that our formula accurately predicts the construction time when you look at the finished works and price them out in OD&D values. This is a solid data point backing up a previous poster's suggestion that if sufficient free-of-charge labor isn't available, costs will double or treble.<br />- The nature of the formula suggests that as projects become larger, efficiency grows higher. On one hand, this makes sense -- larger projects probably justify investmentment in specialized tools, expert craftsmen, etc. On the other hand, there are probably some C2/management bottlenecks that cause efficiency to come down. Anyone who has worked on a large enough project knows that even with modern management and workflow efficiencies there are some productivity losses with larger teams.<br /><br />NEXT QUESTIONS -- WHAT IS "SUFFICIENT" LABOR?<br />Its hard to define what "sufficient" labor is to qualify for the "BTB" prices for castles. As an order of magnitude estimate we know that Beaumaris needed 2500 laborers the first summer (32K man-weeks). On the other end of a spectrum, I find it hard to believe that a Norman Tower House had a population much larger than a few villages supporting it (maybe 10% of 1K villagers over 5 weeks, for about 500 man-weeks). This is definitely an area for further research.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17407530889660573874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-85728900304774034262019-10-14T22:22:07.725-04:002019-10-14T22:22:07.725-04:00Here's some more data points:
https://erenow.n...Here's some more data points:<br />https://erenow.net/common/castle-a-history-of-the-buildings-that-shaped-medieval-britain/3.php<br /><br />Rochester Keep.<br />Cost ~£3,000<br />Time (actual) 8-10 years<br />Time (predicted) 8.15 yrs<br /><br />Dover Keep<br />Cost £4,000<br />Time (actual) 10 years<br />Time (predicted) 9.4 years<br /><br />Orford<br />Cost £1,500<br />Time (Actual) 6 years<br />Time (Predicted) 5.7 yrs<br /><br />That's from that article. All of those times match the formula about perfectly. <br /><br /><br />Flint Castle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_Castle)<br />Cost 6068L<br />Time (actual) 9 years<br />Time (predicted) 11.6 years<br />- Pretty close!<br /><br /><br />Two More: http://www.castlesandmanorhouses.com/architecture_08_building.htm<br /><br />Rhuddlan Castle<br />Cost £9,000<br />Time (Actual) 5 years<br />Time (Predicted) 14 yrs<br />- Possibly a rush job? Probably a hired workforce.<br /><br /><br />Beaumaris Castle (part 1)<br />Cost £11,000<br />Time (Actual) 5 years<br />Time (Predicted) 15 yrs<br />- Hired workforce of ~2500 personnel, wages of 270L/week (for first summer; work slowed second summer, then came to a trickle years 3-5). The wages thus account for somewhere between 3.5K pounds for the first summer alone.<br /><br />This is an interesting case. A quick look at the plan of the castle indicates six large towers (10K SP each in OD&D), two gatehouses (3K SP each in OD&D), 12 small towers (4.5K SP ea) and about 2000 feet of wall (75K SP)... As a WAG, about 2350L in construction costs. That sort of castle should take 7 years to complete. That's pretty close to 5 years. Also bear in mind that the "phase 1" of construction was only the "80% solution;" constructed dragged on for another 30 years at a slow rate to get to the finished version I priced out in OD&D costs.<br /><br />WHAT ABOUT CHEAP CASTLES?<br />Another common reference point is the Norman Tower House, probably costing about 10 pounds and taking a year to throw up. Our formula indicates 24 months.<br /><br />Also on the cheap end is a motte and bailey. Paying cash wages for all labor, one example costs 20 pounds and took about 4 weeks for a crew of 50 laborers.<br />http://www.castlesandmanorhouses.com/architecture_08_building.htm<br /><br />Our formula suggests a time of 34 weeks, which is way longer than the actual Motte and Bailey. Tentatively, this could suggest that the formula works for stone castles, but perhaps wood & earth construction is way faster (10x faster?). Alternatively, if we assume that like Beaumaris, the actual castle cost is 1/4 of the price (with 3/4 being hired labor) then we get a construction time of 17 weeks... perhaps a smaller crew of about 15 laborers?<br /><br />WHAT ABOUT GRAND PROJECTS?<br />At the other end of the spectrum, Wiki says:<br />"Edward I's campaign of castle-building in Wales cost £80,000 between 1277 and 1304, and £95,000 between 1277 and 1329;"<br />(also here http://www.castlesandmanorhouses.com/architecture_08_building.htm)<br /><br />80K over 27 years (actual) vs. 42 years (predicted)<br />95K over 52 years (actual) vs. 45 years (predicted)<br /><br />Those values are at the outer end of our formula but even so they're not completely out of there.<br />Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17407530889660573874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-60185911872175323552019-09-19T09:43:37.065-04:002019-09-19T09:43:37.065-04:00That's great data, I'll have to think abou...That's great data, I'll have to think about that. Thanks so much for pointing that out!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-57444188437000399922019-09-19T09:40:33.845-04:002019-09-19T09:40:33.845-04:00Actually, no, it's just a simple mathematical ...Actually, no, it's just a simple mathematical model that seems to match the real-world time data pretty well.<br /><br />Or in other words: Perhaps more research needed for why that's the case. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-83476493524983169192019-09-19T09:31:12.601-04:002019-09-19T09:31:12.601-04:00To add to my previous conjectures that, if the PCs...To add to my previous conjectures that, if the PCs are paying entirely in coin and don't have any feudal peasants contributing labor, that something on the order of 3 to 4 times the OD&D price might me needed:<br /><br />From the UC Davis Medieval Price List web archive (http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html) there is a section about Langeais, a rectangular, tapering stone tower built in 992-<br />994. The dimensions at the base were 17.5 <br />meters by 10 meters; the height was 16m - so about equivalent to the Peveril Castle tower.<br /><br />Labor Costs, in Average Working Days (AWD):<br /> procurement: 14 250<br /> transport: 2 880<br /> labor:<br /> unskilled: 63 500<br /> mason: 12 700<br /> smith: 1 600<br /><br />Later in the list, they give pay for a laborer circa 1300 as "£2/year max," which would translate to 2d/day. Rolling the year back to 992, let's assume half the pay, or 1d/day for simplicity. The mason and smith might earn 2d/day, and I'm unsure on the procurement and transportation costs, but I've read accounts qualitatively claiming that it was costly to transport goods in the medieval period, so let's say those are at least twice as expensive as unskilled labor as well.<br /><br />We end up with labor costs in the ballpark of 120,000d = 10,000s = £500. That doesn't even count the cost of any materials that the lord was unable to extract from his own lands and had to pay for. So adding in an unknown amount extra for material costs, it's looking like at least triple the £200 for Peveril, and over 100 years earlier as well so possibly some inflation occurred during that time, perhaps making the inflation-adjusted cost of Langeais in 12th-century pounds closer to £800 - or 48,000 coins in your 1 groat = 1 silver piece system.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-57034436211501153182019-09-18T14:11:36.522-04:002019-09-18T14:11:36.522-04:00That's fair to just assume all labor will be h...That's fair to just assume all labor will be hired; my real point was conjecturing that much of the true cost of those first three castles was obfuscated by non-hired labor. And that Castle Gaillard might have cost nearly the same amount of money to build whether it was built in 2 years or 10 years.<br /><br />My hypothesis is that for "cheap" castles that leaned heavily on peasants' manorial labor obligations, construction time was largely a factor of that labor supply. Meanwhile, for castles relying on hired laborers it would be a matter of financial throughput rather than absolute cost - if you could only afford to devote £2000 per year to building, then a castle equivalent to Gaillard would take 6 years to complete.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-24790586976872154772019-09-18T14:06:18.722-04:002019-09-18T14:06:18.722-04:00I'm assuming you take the square root of the c...I'm assuming you take the square root of the cost because you're dealing with square footage... so if you were building a wall instead of a castle, you'd be dividing the cost instead. Although I'm thinking you could work out a standard unit of square footage that would make sense in the game and just multiply the number of areas you are building in by the base time.<br /><br />I would probably have to go that route, since I came up with an idea of estimating costs by using the cost of a ship as the base cost and asking "how many people are going to be housed in the structure?" and adjusting the cost accordingly... then doubling or tripling the cost because it's stone rather than wood. But I never got to the point where any players actually needed to build anything, so I never worked out building times, anyways.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-2616306305943969602019-09-17T23:43:51.771-04:002019-09-17T23:43:51.771-04:00Why, I oughta... oh, actually that's an extrem...Why, I oughta... oh, actually that's an extremely pleasant idea.<br /><br />And a very nice system on your blog, thanks for sharing that!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-10100872459201963942019-09-17T23:38:23.591-04:002019-09-17T23:38:23.591-04:00Admittedly for me I might say that those two chara...Admittedly for me I might say that those two characteristics mostly cancel each other out. Maybe. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-84212298247608166842019-09-17T23:36:19.016-04:002019-09-17T23:36:19.016-04:00It's something that I definitely wrestle with ...It's something that I definitely wrestle with from time to time in regards to issues like this, early knights-service versus later scutage, levies vs. standing army, etc. There are times that I want to model all of those systems that feed into support of medieval armies.<br /><br />But the truth of it for our D&D games that practically all of us play PCs as showing up with no land or fiefs and big sacks of coins instead. So it makes for a pretty crisp simplification to assume some kind of late-era economy with everything based on cash payments. Gives us a thinner system and interfaces with our PCs better in that regard. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-57272999509358175062019-09-17T23:27:58.610-04:002019-09-17T23:27:58.610-04:00I'd like to see a citation for that. Related: ...I'd like to see a citation for that. Related: I'd gotten the impression that in that same area, travel basically stopped in the winter. But when I pursued the academic literature on that, the data shows pretty strongly it was a myth. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-63017730773109565972019-09-17T23:26:37.668-04:002019-09-17T23:26:37.668-04:00That's possibly not a bad point.That's possibly not a bad point.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-32928782332804749772019-09-17T23:26:02.886-04:002019-09-17T23:26:02.886-04:00Oh wow, nice. Now I'm fantasizing about differ...Oh wow, nice. Now I'm fantasizing about different pros/cons to pursue for each of those. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-29608878725633523912019-09-17T23:25:02.838-04:002019-09-17T23:25:02.838-04:00I think sometimes in these case (particularly big-...I think sometimes in these case (particularly big-ticket campaign items) letting the facts of reality lead me in a place I wouldn't have made up on my own provides freshness and productive struggle. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.com