tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post6083886357193539426..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Cleaving Through the AgesDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-50175170295805745732021-06-21T11:18:27.418-04:002021-06-21T11:18:27.418-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.decodersdigitalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15511683903316555421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-55265760790422852202021-05-30T11:49:13.860-04:002021-05-30T11:49:13.860-04:00The key is giving a damage bonus only to fighter t...The key is giving a damage bonus only to fighter types. In practice, without that extra +1 to +5 damage (depending on level) thieves and clerics just don't cleave that much. <br /><br />Now if the cleric casts striking, gaining + 1d6, they start to actually cleave. I also require surprise or significant combat advantage to allow a backstab. Merely being behind someone in combat doesn't trigger a backstab.Jojodogboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06870044018296516914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-64326430046151365632021-05-30T11:39:00.185-04:002021-05-30T11:39:00.185-04:00In my experience old school combat is quick anyway...In my experience old school combat is quick anyway. Adding cleaving actually speeds up combat, especially at low levels when the spell casters need to save their encounter ending spells<br /><br />Against higher level foes, an occasional roll every couple of rounds adds to the epic flow imho. Practically speaking it balances out.Jojodogboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06870044018296516914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-28724112473111554972021-05-30T10:00:55.166-04:002021-05-30T10:00:55.166-04:00I think that's pretty good advice, thank you! ...I think that's pretty good advice, thank you! And pretty likely the direction I'll be going in now.<br /><br />I think that C&C rule is coming right out of that 3E Whirlwind Attack feat (at least, using that name to be solid with the OGL licensing). <br /><br />Actually, I could even get comfortable with having maybe 10 attacks per round -- interpreting it not as literally separate blows, but epic strokes going through multiple bodies. (Obv. a 5E style Cleave rule that spreads out the damage is on target for that, too.) <br /><br />Agreed that declaring hit = kill in a case like that is a huge time-server, and I totally do that anytime Cleave comes up in my games currently. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-55536147430307059972021-05-29T19:55:16.940-04:002021-05-29T19:55:16.940-04:00Delta,
I would recommend a version of cleave at f...Delta,<br /><br />I would recommend a version of cleave at first level for your OD&D house rules. I have seen a version reducing the amount of rolls required. You drop an opponent you automatically hit an opponent within range. The number of opponents could increase every 4 levels. Given the duration of a combat round, I am not seeing 10 to 20 attacks within one round. Granted D&D is abstract, but I am still not seeing 10 attacks per round regardless how incompetent the opponents are.<br /><br />Another option I like, was presented in Castles and Crusades under the Barbarian Character Class. When a Barbarian reaches level 4 they get an ability named Whirlwind Attack that allows multiple attacks against opponents half their level. lobocastlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16984912823297100482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-26713801355152896742021-05-29T13:33:06.677-04:002021-05-29T13:33:06.677-04:00Hey, thanks for that, super useful!
FWIW, one or ...Hey, thanks for that, super useful!<br /><br />FWIW, one or two days ago I was hammering out an endnote in the OED Players rules that gives the option of the divide-by-3 and round to closest method. Of course, your "heck with shields" option is the same as the BOW core mechanic. (There's justifiably a difference based on the different scales involved, actually.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-27336890209907264852021-05-28T09:31:45.191-04:002021-05-28T09:31:45.191-04:00I've done a post about cleaving, with a little...I've done a post about cleaving, with a little analysis of d6 vs d20 probabilities at<br />https://talesoftheramblingbumblers.com/2021/05/25/cleaving-attacks/Joshua Macyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10838733328132877699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-52102151361757962002021-05-27T12:12:43.597-04:002021-05-27T12:12:43.597-04:00Good experience, thanks for sharing that, actually...Good experience, thanks for sharing that, actually!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-17671249314721828702021-05-27T12:11:43.730-04:002021-05-27T12:11:43.730-04:00Thanks -- I agree, I've actually had a tasklis...Thanks -- I agree, I've actually had a tasklist item to do that for a while now, haven't gotten to that yet. Bumping that up in my priority list now.<br /><br />(Also I think I've been using the wrong H# value for a while so I might have to go back and fix... a lot of stuff.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-6428205691252604512021-05-26T19:08:39.542-04:002021-05-26T19:08:39.542-04:00Ah, the sidebar just says "remove Clerics&quo...Ah, the sidebar just says "remove Clerics", but the "more detail" page does include details about replacing them with Thieves. On that somewhat tangential topic, I've increasingly liked the Delving Deeper and S&W:WB/WBFMAG takes on Thieves, or even the LotFP class with its d6 skills.<br /><br />In any case, to return to the topic at hand and reply to other comments here, my experience of Cleave attacks vs. "drop a bunch of dice" is that players are perfectly willing to sit still for the drama of multiple Cleaves, and it does some interesting things with dramatic timing in enough instances that it makes the slight slowing of the game worth it. Obviously, others may experience all of that differently. It depends on the group, in the end.faoladhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03691952430041394614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-54640493992915125482021-05-26T13:27:47.791-04:002021-05-26T13:27:47.791-04:00You might want to have the subtitles be a differen...You might want to have the subtitles be a different color than the titles, because often when I'm scrolling through a blogspot page looking for posts I'm just looking for the titles in a wall of text. If not, no worries, though. :)dcdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154350186931640520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-67650443320132342732021-05-26T10:20:19.325-04:002021-05-26T10:20:19.325-04:00You've chosen wisely!You've chosen wisely!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-5085463054876867632021-05-26T00:37:38.068-04:002021-05-26T00:37:38.068-04:00In my experience the quick and easy resolution is ...In my experience the quick and easy resolution is well worth the lack of tedium involved in rolling out all those attack and damage dice individually. :)John Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06522143715905888511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-68139366810056422942021-05-26T00:13:32.269-04:002021-05-26T00:13:32.269-04:00That's an interesting point about the status o...That's an interesting point about the status of the multiple attacks in RC. Since it's the same ability and under the same heading as in the Companion Rules ("Fighter Combat Options"), I thought it was identical. But I see now it looks like they removed "must give fealty" piece of the rule. Interesting detail. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-33528556115696912422021-05-26T00:08:01.291-04:002021-05-26T00:08:01.291-04:00Yeah, quite nice! Thanks for sharing it here, peop...Yeah, quite nice! Thanks for sharing it here, people should consider that.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36180199082026634062021-05-26T00:07:29.638-04:002021-05-26T00:07:29.638-04:00I actually do use Thieves -- I sometimes express t...I actually do use Thieves -- I sometimes express that as "replace Clerics in LBBs with Thieves". (The sidebar here on my house rules says that near the end.) But my instinct is to agree with you, I would not be prone to giving Thieves (or Wizards) the sweep attacks. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-35884742399206872172021-05-26T00:05:20.636-04:002021-05-26T00:05:20.636-04:00Fascinating! I bet that makes for high drama aroun...Fascinating! I bet that makes for high drama around the initiative roll.<br /><br />(Admittedly I roll once and then go around the table for the rest of combat, so would be harder for me to implement.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-62648758924157460142021-05-26T00:04:19.060-04:002021-05-26T00:04:19.060-04:00Nice! I like that take.Nice! I like that take.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36218905828112624982021-05-26T00:04:01.004-04:002021-05-26T00:04:01.004-04:00Yeah, this is a very strong argument. As you proba...Yeah, this is a very strong argument. As you probably know, this is closest to the way I'm leaning myself these days.<br /><br />Also among the easiest to abstract into Book of War scale.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-42082302447024505662021-05-26T00:03:04.979-04:002021-05-26T00:03:04.979-04:00Yeah, I think I saw on Dragonsfoot multiple people...Yeah, I think I saw on Dragonsfoot multiple people saying they'd played with Gygax and seen him do it that same way. It's kind of neat, actually. On the other hand, my OCD rings a bell that says, "not same probability distribution!" that I should probably ignore more often. <br /><br />Think I heard of that for the first time just a few weeks back. Maybe it will grow closer to me over time. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-89914170329620369682021-05-26T00:01:05.233-04:002021-05-26T00:01:05.233-04:00Absolutely reasonable points.Absolutely reasonable points.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-88787076116374861012021-05-26T00:00:28.379-04:002021-05-26T00:00:28.379-04:00Ooh, good point.Ooh, good point.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-38460954894409287142021-05-26T00:00:12.411-04:002021-05-26T00:00:12.411-04:00Fascinating! It seems rare to me to give it to mon...Fascinating! It seems rare to me to give it to monsters, as well. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-56304140806322611182021-05-25T23:59:33.232-04:002021-05-25T23:59:33.232-04:00I've like the Cleave take for a long time. The...I've like the Cleave take for a long time. The counter-argument is: you don't kinow how many attacks in advance, exactly. With original "sweeps" you can just drop N dice on the table at once; with Cleave they must be played out sequentially, which might take longer. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-5075222520641539962021-05-25T23:58:13.260-04:002021-05-25T23:58:13.260-04:00Great take; and I really appreciate the perspectiv...Great take; and I really appreciate the perspective of someone not pickled in old-school, like your wife. It's true that there's a bit of immersion-breaking that you need to talk about the hit dice to implement it. I think I'd want some way of communicating that to players without talking quantification, exactly ("appear less-trained" or something). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.com