tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post5513696344425069807..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Random Dungeon StockingDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-42685387554843524012023-02-21T12:10:43.079-05:002023-02-21T12:10:43.079-05:00Glad you raised this, I think those are good point...Glad you raised this, I think those are good points. Actually, the advice of rolling non-lair area encounters in-game is interesting news to me (and comparable to the initial wilderness rules).<br /><br />I totally agree with your points on treasure at the end: very much agreed that Gygax's system intent seems to be something like the M&TA treasure values. My theory is that he didn't finalize that in time for the LBBs, and never actually published the system publicly, but we can largely reverse-engineer it. I keep wanting time to blog about that, hopefully soon.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-19929219254041438292023-02-15T16:21:13.430-05:002023-02-15T16:21:13.430-05:00Some severe thread necromancy here, but having rea...Some severe thread necromancy here, but having read this post, the one you did on wandering monster frequency, and also the one that you did on how Gygax stocked and keyed his Greyhawk dungeon (the one where you quote from the ENworld Q&A from 2005) I've come to the conclusion that Gygax originally had a very dynamic dungeon.<br /><br />If you compare D&D 1977 with 1981 you have the following:<br />Specially placed monsters and treasure. Both are roughly the same - select 2 or 3 per level, designate them as lairs and roll numbers and treasure as per treasure type.<br />Other occupied rooms. 1977 M&TA has 20% of rooms occupied, of which 80% have treasure, for a 16% of the total numbers of rooms having treasure. 1981 Moldvay has 33% of rooms occupied, of which 50% have treasure, giving 16.5% of rooms having treasure. This figure, while roughly the same is more distributed and harder to win as it's guarded by more monsters.<br />Wandering monsters. 1977 has 1-in-6 each turn while 1981 has 1-in-6 every other turn.<br /><br />So it seems to me that 1977 is more dynamic and random and that the players can hit one or two rooms and get a better chance of a pay-off than players in 1981.<br /><br />My proposal that dungeoneering in 1977 was more dynamic and random than dungeoneering in 1981 I think is supported by the Gygax statement in the Enworld Q&A and the stocking evidence above. The following page in the Q&A also contains an interesting statement from Gygax which recommends a dynamic and adaptive style by placing few monsters beyond the initial specially placed lairs and rolling them randomly on the spot (very easy to do with M&TA). As an aside Gygax's words to me suggest that his advice extends to avoiding fitting the players to a DM's preconceived idea of the dungeon ie: railroading.<br /><br />A gap in my proposal is the difference of the average value of a treasure outside of the specially placed treasures in 1977 and 1981. The 1977 would follow the Monster & Treasure Assortment while 1981 Moldvay is more confused. The stocking table suggests that you use the treasure type indicated but elsewhere the text is clear that those types only apply to lairs. The Unguarded Treasure tables might be used but the words as written suggest that these are only where there are no monsters.Jacob72https://www.blogger.com/profile/17268402292420473229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-35298513493310036692021-01-19T15:33:56.292-05:002021-01-19T15:33:56.292-05:00Traps I can get behind; my experience is that any ...Traps I can get behind; my experience is that any "special" thing needs design up-front with thoughtful inspiration by the DM. I got too frustrated with the B/X random tables indicating "special" with no guidance, and thus throwing extra creative work at me.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-2314718734105297072020-12-14T12:19:50.389-05:002020-12-14T12:19:50.389-05:00We need some traps and one special random tables.We need some traps and one special random tables.A.F.W Juniorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15868768368133083012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-24239271486489773712020-01-07T13:06:04.072-05:002020-01-07T13:06:04.072-05:00On that note: I've been doing a deeper analysi...On that note: I've been doing a deeper analysis of early dungeon designs, and looking over Gygax's shoulder at his Castle Greyhawk map, or module S3, he really did have majority-blank (not even keyed) rooms there -- like 75% blank. But I think that would be a very hard sell for any gamers today. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-38540586634622522312020-01-03T08:00:48.925-05:002020-01-03T08:00:48.925-05:00Definitely. When I'm making a big dungeon, ge...Definitely. When I'm making a big dungeon, genuinely empty, no-contents rooms are only a fraction of the unoccupied ones. And certainly, the lurking/ambush-type monsters are going to be less effective if there aren't unoccupied ones. <br /><br />Of course, random encounters can still happen in unoccupied rooms, and their plausibility is enhanced when there's actually elbow room between occupied rooms in which wandering patrols, clean-up crew (etc.) could actually wander around in.Shimrodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14950780684532279227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-39706472868282573802019-12-30T12:55:11.800-05:002019-12-30T12:55:11.800-05:00That's pretty fair, and I wouldn't want to...That's pretty fair, and I wouldn't want to have every single room with a monster. Also, there should be some amount of building tension/uncertainty about whether rooms have monsters or not. <br /><br />Something that people have basically convinced me of since I wrote that blog post is that whereas B/X uses the word "empty" for rooms sans monsters/traps/specials, OD&D does not, it uses "unoccupied". So arguably there can be interesting rooms like storerooms, unoccupied bedrooms or meeting rooms, a library, etc., without monsters present. (Even though I think Gygax's Greyhawk style does have really-empty rooms, later adventures like G1-3 do not.) Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-84954387228579864132019-12-18T08:10:42.331-05:002019-12-18T08:10:42.331-05:00I think having a significant number of empty (at l...I think having a significant number of empty (at least empty of hostiles) rooms is an important component of megadungeon-style play, in that it allows for buffer space between different factions of monsters, and maneuvering space for the PCs. So if they want to try to sneak around an area, or approach a given monster lair from a different direction, that's more of an option. Or if they want to flee from/evade monsters, they have more space to do that, and more options than straight back the way they came.Shimrodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14950780684532279227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-52769584646012188982019-09-19T09:49:43.652-04:002019-09-19T09:49:43.652-04:00Wow, I totally did not know that. Thanks for point...Wow, I totally did not know that. Thanks for pointing that out!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-9440092789381083172019-09-18T12:47:07.557-04:002019-09-18T12:47:07.557-04:00Note that the earlier edition of Dungeon Geomorphs...Note that the earlier edition of Dungeon Geomorphs (1976) provided a different distribution from the 1981 (sets 1 to 3) edition. The later aligned the distribution with Moldvay, while the 1976 edition stated "Approximately 25% of the rooms and large spaces should contain monsters, treasures and other notable items."Kaiquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13268348558006325529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-55562520227871562852019-05-19T15:59:02.978-04:002019-05-19T15:59:02.978-04:00I think that's the same as what I said? "...I think that's the same as what I said? "Delta's Rule: ... 2-in-6 indicates random monsters from the wandering charts... A second roll indicates treasure, 3-in-6 for monsters and 1-in-6 for otherwise empty rooms... OD&D is most similar to what I do above."Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-79203510758454860362019-05-13T11:06:11.391-04:002019-05-13T11:06:11.391-04:00I think you misread OD&D, you roll twice, firs...I think you misread OD&D, you roll twice, first to see if there's a monster (on 1-2) and then to see if there's treasure (1-3 if there's a monster) with only a roll of 1 in an unoccupied room indicating treasure, so 20/36, or about 55% of all rooms are empty using this method.NathanShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16318655557022495392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-13443359234975269742019-01-18T13:39:19.732-05:002019-01-18T13:39:19.732-05:00Thanks for the feedback, I hope that helps your ga...Thanks for the feedback, I hope that helps your game!<br /><br />P.S. As I write this I can see some copies of the Holmes Basic D&D rulebook on EBay for $5 or $20 (once you look past the $250 boxed sets and so forth). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-55327676548643076292019-01-14T10:14:21.590-05:002019-01-14T10:14:21.590-05:00Back in those days, I always designed every room. ...Back in those days, I always designed every room. Just recently I've been finding posts like yours above really influential and am about to modify "Falun Caverns" from The Northern Reaches. I figure the kobolds there have done some tunneling and structure building. Anyway, I plan to do a bit of a hybrid between planning and Mentzer/Moldvay. Can't find my Holmes book which makes me terribly sad.Rutger Daghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16480257845131298702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-65049592466779736822012-10-30T07:47:10.209-04:002012-10-30T07:47:10.209-04:00Moldvay has always been my tool of choice, but tha...Moldvay has always been my tool of choice, but that's probably b/c it was my first. Even after using AD&D for a bit I went back to Moldvay. When the lists weren't numbered I'd roll and count through the options as if they were. What's funny is that Moldvay's inefficiency was actually something I viewed as a benefit -- I enjoyed the time spent in the dungeon before use and found that any number of new ideas would occur to me while tinkering w/ it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08344063324164171080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-20050350311412206092012-10-14T23:21:33.428-04:002012-10-14T23:21:33.428-04:00Good catch! Of course, it was right on the flip-pa...Good catch! Of course, it was right on the flip-page from where I was looking for it. :-/Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-68323277678371255512012-10-10T00:48:08.851-04:002012-10-10T00:48:08.851-04:00Just saw this post. I think you missed the Holmes ...Just saw this post. I think you missed the Holmes guidance - it's at the top of page 40. It's a summary/reduction of the OD&D rules: place special items first, rooms have monsters on 1-2 in 6, clean-up crew are randomly placed mostly in corridors, wandering monsters determined during play. The Sample Dungeon roughly follows this by having eight empty (E) rooms.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-64170232958723260982012-10-05T11:35:51.044-04:002012-10-05T11:35:51.044-04:00I've been using the OD&D method, liberally...I've been using the OD&D method, liberally peppered with results from tables from other sources, particularly the AD&D DMG. <br /><br />For the non-random design (particularly the "specials"), I try to draw on James Mal's Old School Design Guidelines as much as possible (http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/02/old-school-dungeon-design-guidelines.html).Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-18485251724437528822012-10-05T04:02:40.181-04:002012-10-05T04:02:40.181-04:00I used the Moldvay tables until I picked up the Me...I used the Moldvay tables until I picked up the Mentzer Basic to finish my BECMI collection. In my DM's book, someone had numbered the examples listed for traps, turning them into a useful table. This has worked pretty well when no other idea lent itself. For Specials I usually turn to the 1E DMG for inspiration. <br /><br />As for monsters, I typically have an idea of what sorts of monsters are found in a given level or area, and make a local random encounter chart which I use for stocking as well. I try to include an entry that points to the basic charts in Moldvay, in order to ensure that I can be surprised. (Doing this led to my tentpole dungeon's second level - originally intended to center around a goblin lair - to include a major nest of giant ants. The party's efforts against the ants were at least as great an undertaking as the raids against the goblins.)Odrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16693018140658090516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-88040986306099064002012-10-03T20:41:08.172-04:002012-10-03T20:41:08.172-04:00"I wrote up short traps and tricks tables, so..."I wrote up short traps and tricks tables, so that those could be randomly determined as well."<br /><br />Totally agree that's a fair solution; Moldvay should have included those (although I assume it takes quite a bit of space for tables for different level-difficulties).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-32826238135141891722012-10-02T14:09:26.983-04:002012-10-02T14:09:26.983-04:00I have been using Moldvay, with the important cave...I have been using Moldvay, with the important caveat that major/themed/"special" encounters (including "guard" rooms) are designed without randomizers, and the randomizers are only used to fill in the areas leftover. <br /><br />To avoid doing additional design when using Moldvay's method, I wrote up short traps and tricks tables, so that those could be randomly determined as well. <br /><br />I started out using no randomizers, then switched to the OD&D method, then switched to Moldvay, because I like having a chance for traps and tricks in the leftover areas of the dungeon. I agree that without additional tables Moldvay's method would be inefficient. Moldvay should also only be used to fill in the dungeon after the major/themed encounters have been designed.<br /><br />The "emptiness issue" has been preoccupying me of late. For whatever reason I have been loathe to include many empty rooms in the dungeon. It does make sense to include empty rooms from a game-play perspective, though, to create variety and pauses between the action. But leaving empty rooms in the middle of an inhabited part of the dungeon seems weird to me, as if the rooms are being "wasted". I can think of a dozen things the occupants of the dungeon would do with that space! Guard rooms, storage, prison cells, shrines, etc. As a consequence of this attitude, I think my dungeons have been too densely packed. One-third empty sounds about right to me. <br />Jon Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15483110614579754014noreply@blogger.com