tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post5293067059122684885..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Spells Through the Ages – Damage TypesDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-60743065316039572362021-06-05T11:07:54.110-04:002021-06-05T11:07:54.110-04:00I basically agree with those criticisms.
The bes...I basically agree with those criticisms. <br /><br />The best counterargument I can form is that the subdual seems to require melee attacks only (somewhat clearer in AD&D), so ranged archery, flash-bang spells, etc., seem taken off the table. Related, there's a note in OD&D Vol-2 that only 8 PCs can try to subdue (wiping out benefit of big entourage). <br /><br />It's interesting in the pre-draft ("Dalluhn Manuscript") dragons aren't even in the main monster listing, they're in an appendix like they're an entirely separate sub-system of the rules. <br /><br />Personally I've been convinced by friend Paul that it's not a great system, and would prefer to wrap the idea into a general rule for morale and surrender by any monsters. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-64222986444194188602021-06-04T13:28:04.632-04:002021-06-04T13:28:04.632-04:00Apart from wondering why Gary would waste the spac...Apart from wondering why Gary would waste the space to introduce a elemental modifier matrix that had very minor effects, and seems unnecessarily complex and specialized, I wanted to ask about these subdual rules:<br /><br />Is there any downside to subdue a dragon, the way they are written? It seems to me there is none, and plenty of upside - if you are lucky, after the first hit you roll low on percentile die, and collect a dragon companion without much of a fight. Even if you are not lucky, the way these rules are written they can only shorten the fight. By the time you would have killed the dragon, you would have a 100% chance to subdue him. And a shorter fight means less attacks from the dragon and higher survival chances. Plus a dragon that will serve you or that you can sell for a fat amount of loot, which even means more XP if I am not mistaken?<br /><br />This seems to make this a badly designed rule. Would you not expect a downside that the characters would have to consider for all these upsides, like less likely to hit as you have to avoid sharp edges? Or am I missing something here?Groodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11807640588820379915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-79549379137021519692012-08-16T11:21:36.766-04:002012-08-16T11:21:36.766-04:00^ Ha! Good point. :-)^ Ha! Good point. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-13163807382064903902012-08-16T09:50:14.182-04:002012-08-16T09:50:14.182-04:00Nice post, even with the dragons.
@I yearn for th...Nice post, even with the dragons.<br /><br />@I yearn for the ambiguous status of magic [...]<br /><br />"Fscking Wizards, how do they work?"<br /><br />Using all the rules in AD&D for Magic-Users makes them pretty weird. More elaborately designed books to hold high level spells, queer sympathetic material components (a gummed eyelash for Sleep), the amount of rest and preparation time to force them into your mind, the random durations and effects, the arbitrary limits on targets, inability to directly copy another Wizard's book because your Fireball really is different to everyone else's, and copying your own spells is supernaturally difficult, the unpredictable learning of spells, strict limits on knowledge, the difference in how monsters use it all, ....tussockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01624091727724404725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-63288669203689374552012-08-14T00:27:50.295-04:002012-08-14T00:27:50.295-04:00^ I totally agree with that, well put. The Dragons...^ I totally agree with that, well put. The Dragons section is generally kind of out-in-left-field in a lot ways like that (hit points, subduing, etc.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-40129929557277795912012-08-13T13:48:22.564-04:002012-08-13T13:48:22.564-04:00The attacking dragons damage matrix on page 12 of ...The attacking dragons damage matrix on page 12 of M&T does kinda do a runner on this, as it includes water, air, and earth in addition to fire and lightning, but omits cold.<br /><br />Generally, I'd be fine with dropping it and and compulsive must-systemitize-all-four-elements behavior generally, but it does then leave a sour taste if you retain classically divided elementals and then have them not line up against dragons (especially since enterprising wizards will exploit dragons elemental weaknesses by summoning appropriate elementals, as that becomes the most general elemental attack spell...)Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-85468985323655330312012-08-10T09:35:28.452-04:002012-08-10T09:35:28.452-04:00@ Delta:
Never say never.
; )@ Delta:<br /><br />Never say never.<br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-74431690065400107172012-08-09T19:34:29.518-04:002012-08-09T19:34:29.518-04:00^ Yes, I agree with that, and think that's a c...^ Yes, I agree with that, and think that's a completely legitimate direction to move in. Sometimes I consider that but can't quite bring myself to cross the line. I yearn for the ambiguous status of magic in works like Conan and Fafhrd & Gray Mouser (maybe it's just a trick, or a chemical?), yet probably it wouldn't work as well in an RPG with PC wizards (echoes of why I delete clerics).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-45511411846119063292012-08-09T13:42:39.115-04:002012-08-09T13:42:39.115-04:00It really is quite interesting to consider (if you...It really is quite interesting to consider (if you care to) that without Chainmail (where we get fireball and lightning bolt) there really would be ABSOLUTELY NO "direct damage" spells in OD&D (I consider walls to be barriers one shouldn't cross, after all...just used against different types of opponent, i.e. wall of fire versus a frost giant). Without the later supplemental spells, magic-users take on a much more "utilitarian" role, rather than "artillery" (which, granted, was their main role in the Chainmail war game). I think that's pretty neat.<br /><br />Which is, of course, why I've cut nearly all "direct damage" spells from my own version of D&D.<br />: )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-4514946739122699642012-08-09T11:49:24.411-04:002012-08-09T11:49:24.411-04:00While to modern eyes those may looks like a rather...<i>While to modern eyes those may looks like a rather odd and random assortment of things to call attention to in each case (fire, cold, lightning, and weapons) -- especially in later works like the AD&D Monster Manual -- in OD&D in makes a lot more sense, as it's simply a comprehensive treatment of every damage mode that exists in the game.</i><br /><br />This is a great observation.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12096724870715714696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-23851456183724621122012-08-09T11:41:41.075-04:002012-08-09T11:41:41.075-04:00JDJarvis: That's a very reasonable adjudicatio...JDJarvis: That's a very reasonable adjudication, but not how Gygax interpreted it later in AD&D. Part of my point is how the AD&D system retains those four shout-outs in the monster descriptions, even when you've got all these new spells that dodge those categories. If not <i>magic missile</i>, then in OD&D Sup-I you can point at <i>prismatic wall</i>'s untyped damage, etc.<br /><br />Hedgehobbit: You're right about the <i>wand of cold</i>, of course; I was intentionally limiting myself to Vol-1 content for time's sake. Probably there's other stuff we could pick on in Vol-2 as well.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-55782847450699594632012-08-09T10:25:57.104-04:002012-08-09T10:25:57.104-04:00There's also a Wand of Cold which produces an ...There's also a Wand of Cold which produces an effect similar to the later Cone of Cold spell.<br /><br />Also, it's nice to see the Arnesonian term "chops" surviving in the black pudding description. I never noticed it before.Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-8700425473833054212012-08-09T08:45:14.900-04:002012-08-09T08:45:14.900-04:00Magic Missile is weapon damage isn't it? Grant...Magic Missile is weapon damage isn't it? Granted it is magical weapon damage but it's weapon damage (at least in the good old days).JDJarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07691101939920824546noreply@blogger.com