tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post2254708506488754802..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Subterrane Surveys: Gygax's Castle GreyhawkDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-50899328373272386332021-01-19T15:50:01.123-05:002021-01-19T15:50:01.123-05:00David, thanks for reading this stuff and the great...David, thanks for reading this stuff and the great (really, the crucial) question. I'll confess that as 2020 started I was writing these articles and trying to get to a place where I'd have a concluding thesis about precisely that -- and then got derailed a bit. <br /><br />I agree with the assumption that PC level should generally track with dungeon level (it's certainly the simplest assumption).<br /><br />As I write this, I'm not super confident that I have a solid thesis. Maybe there wasn't any thoughtful balance to it, and just no one ever noticed. But one thing I always cycle on is the switch in XP awards from Vol-1 to Sup-I and after; a huge downgrade in monster XP (about 1/10th at lower levels) -- as you say, so making most XP from treasure -- but no corresponding change to the treasure tables or recommendations. If it was balanced at the time of Vol-1, then it wasn't later, and vice-versa. AS we see here, using the Vol-1 monster XP awards, and then also maybe adding in fairly big bonuses for magic items, you do get enough XP to level up reasonably. Still working on the grand unified theory for that, honestly. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-80823765149984668492020-12-10T12:18:32.870-05:002020-12-10T12:18:32.870-05:00Greetings. I've been reading your series and o...Greetings. I've been reading your series and other various people delving into the minutiae of dungeon filling and I had a question for you. Considering that in the olden days (it seems to me, I wasn't there), megadungeon levels should align +- with the character levels, we can expect that, for example, a 3rd level dungeon should give about 20k-25k of GP worth. However, if I randomly assign monsters as per AD&D formula, I end up with about 187 HD for 39 rooms. Using the proposed 50 GP per EHD, it gives a total of 9350. Therefore, using that rule, it seems we are half-short of what a third level should generate. My question is therefore: which is "broken"? AD&D monster HD per dungeon level? 50 GP per EHD? The fact that a level should give enough XP for a party to level up? It seems that some of the module you reviewed didn't have enough GP for party to level-up. However, others, such as Keep, does have it. For more info on where I come from, I previously watched this very informative video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEpdWgGgcrg&ab_channel=Jon%27sD%26DVlog Also, even if we add up XP value of the monsters, it doesn't add up since the majority of XP is supposed to come from treasure and not from monster XP if I recall correctly. Again, thanks for the hard work and cheers! David B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00429498583022992655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-73735413999376996482020-01-23T14:19:17.165-05:002020-01-23T14:19:17.165-05:00I added those details into the main post to make i...I added those details into the main post to make it look more like I know what I'm talking about, thanks! :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-16748011866405123892020-01-23T14:14:24.862-05:002020-01-23T14:14:24.862-05:00OMG, what a spectacular service you did all of us ...OMG, what a spectacular service you did all of us with that photo. It's really a historical treasure!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-48288591035551477412020-01-22T16:24:01.064-05:002020-01-22T16:24:01.064-05:00That "someone" was me! I took that pictu...That "someone" was me! I took that picture the evening of August 16th, 2007 - the day before D&D 4e was announced, and Gary's 25th wedding anniversary. He ran a game for the ENworld moderators that were lucky to be able to attend GenCon 2007. I'm glad it's still being talked about 13 years later.<br /><br />- Matt "Eridanis" BogenEridanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14846463971811200937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-13353459374219347852020-01-22T01:42:25.316-05:002020-01-22T01:42:25.316-05:00I should also point out that (thanks to Zenopus fo...I should also point out that (thanks to Zenopus for linking to it) when Gygax talked on the Pied Paper boards in 2004 about running games at conventions in that era, he said, "I start them at 2nd level and use the old dungeon levels."Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78166492758306480202020-01-18T10:26:41.586-05:002020-01-18T10:26:41.586-05:00That's an epic thread I somehow missed while p...That's an epic thread I somehow missed while preparing my "Greyhawk Castle" post - answers a lot of questions that I had. Thanks for the link!paleologoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02640356065053822793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78290495295168236152020-01-16T12:50:59.651-05:002020-01-16T12:50:59.651-05:00Those are good examples!Those are good examples!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-85579104692613808102020-01-16T12:20:18.748-05:002020-01-16T12:20:18.748-05:00I agree completely that special weapons are far mo...I agree completely that special weapons are far more prominent in the literature than armor (it might be an enlightening sociological study to see how that varies when considering non-American/European sources, but I digress). I will say, though, that the first exception coming to mind is the Chaos shield that Elric quested for in Moorcock's stories. I could've seen including some leather armor made from the flesh of Achilles (or Siegfried of Die Nibelungen, for a more obscure reference), but such was not to be and probably too dark for the general tone of the D&D core rules.Ash Adlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930777908505063233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-38174960808317895022020-01-15T21:39:18.663-05:002020-01-15T21:39:18.663-05:00Yeah I think I'm just pointing out how many to...Yeah I think I'm just pointing out how many total fighter-levels it makes as a way of saying, "this would not be enough XP to graduate a party 6 to 2nd level". Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-62727963181530119422020-01-15T21:37:24.333-05:002020-01-15T21:37:24.333-05:00Oh geez, that's super lovely! Personally for s...Oh geez, that's super lovely! Personally for simplicity purposes I also kind of prefer _not_ repopulating dungeon level when they've been cleared. Once the lair of a monster is wiped out, I strike them from the wandering chart, too. So I'm pretty comfortable with those choices. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-6237507931811140792020-01-15T21:30:16.945-05:002020-01-15T21:30:16.945-05:00Even better, thanks for the link!Even better, thanks for the link!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-55940381809377019872020-01-15T21:25:35.808-05:002020-01-15T21:25:35.808-05:00Neveron: I totally overlooked the DMG +10% monster...Neveron: I totally overlooked the DMG +10% monster rolls, that's a good point.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-27491534421238508132020-01-15T21:24:43.155-05:002020-01-15T21:24:43.155-05:00Ash, re: weapon special abilities: I'm sure th...Ash, re: weapon special abilities: I'm sure that's a reflection of the literature where usually the weapons, esp. swords, get special names and abilities and armor generally doesn't. E.g.: Thor, Arthur, Elric, the Broken Sword, Fafhrd & Gray Mouser, etc., etc. Most notable of course Elric which basically spawned the all swords (and only swords) being intelligent in OD&D, etc.<br /><br />Some have pointed out that it's effectively a special class feature of fighters, since only they can use swords, and thus unlock all of the intelligent/special abilities. I doubt that was fully intentional, but interesting effect nonetheless.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-81688573006351681682020-01-15T19:35:38.391-05:002020-01-15T19:35:38.391-05:00Note, however, that the above is not necessarily h...Note, however, that the above is not necessarily how he ran the original GC games in the early '70s.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-32635112987286008092020-01-15T19:34:04.786-05:002020-01-15T19:34:04.786-05:00He even posted his rules for leveling up the Old G...He even posted his rules for leveling up the Old Guard Kobolds on Kuntz's Pied Piper Forums in Feb 2004. See <a href="https://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7436&p=92367" rel="nofollow">this K&KA post</a>, which quotes/links the original but is a bit more easily readable.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-30763197842614331222020-01-15T19:29:02.526-05:002020-01-15T19:29:02.526-05:00In Gary's mid-2000s home OD&D game, which ...In Gary's mid-2000s home OD&D game, which used an abbreviated version of the dungeon (including this 1st level map), he indicated that he was not restocking the dungeon: "As they are active in the dungeon complex, only wandering monsters will be likely to be encountered on the depopulated 1st level" (2/22/05, Enworld post). But he did allow surviving stocked monsters, particularly the Old Guard Kobolds, to become more dangerous: "PCs have enabled the monsters inhabiting the levels to become better armed and most astute in their tactics" (11/19/04, EnWorld).Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-62494637068240072462020-01-15T18:55:53.586-05:002020-01-15T18:55:53.586-05:00'Twas I, see this post on K&KA.'Twas I, see <a href="https://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?p=196535#p196535" rel="nofollow">this post on K&KA</a>.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-60888569741062898182020-01-15T14:40:00.902-05:002020-01-15T14:40:00.902-05:00In order for 3 fighters to get 2,000 XP apiece, th...In order for 3 fighters to get 2,000 XP apiece, the other 3 fighters are assumed not to have survived...Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-75048673409756337032020-01-15T14:38:44.483-05:002020-01-15T14:38:44.483-05:00FWIW, per the AD&D DMG the XP values of the ma...FWIW, per the AD&D DMG the XP values of the magic items on the matrix are as follows: potion of strength (500), +1 shield (250), potion of undead control (700), +1 battle axe (400), ring of protection (2,000), +1 dagger (75), staff of healing with 6 charges (~1,500). So, 5,425 if all of it is recovered. So the total XP value from monetary treasure and the total XP value from magic items are almost exactly the same, and even with Greyhawk monster XP values that's enough to get a full party of 6 up to 2nd level, with treasure having accounted for about 85% of the total XP.Trenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-56918113267807423032020-01-15T14:35:11.113-05:002020-01-15T14:35:11.113-05:00When it comes to the DMG random dungeon appendix, ...When it comes to the DMG random dungeon appendix, it's worth remembering that it's pretty much just an expanded and prettied-up version of The Strategic Review No.1's Solo Dungeon Adventures. There you see a 3% chance for magic, but if there's a monster it's by monster type "with pro rata adjustment for relative numbers". The DMG simplified this to just being two rolls (+10%) on the treasure table instead, bringing monster magic up to a whopping 24.31%. (Albeit complicated by a 25% chance of monsters, 60% chance of monster treasure, and 1/15th chance of monsterless treasure.)<br /><br />While I'm honestly not sure, I suspect that Solo Dungeon Adventures might have low-balled treasure a bit since it would only have been shared by a single player rather than a group? Still, it remains the only thing close to a dungeon design guide in the DMG.Neveronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06290575926119589773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-74254249312022364972020-01-15T14:05:22.884-05:002020-01-15T14:05:22.884-05:00The possibility of the book treasure tables being ...The possibility of the book treasure tables being meant as completely separate from DM-fiat treasures isn't something I'd considered before, but it sounds entirely plausible. My intuitive counterpoint would be that an awful lot of special-sounding stuff comes up in those tables for them to be generic, but that might be an issue of recycling content (e.g. magic item A is placed specially in adventure 1, magic item B is placed specially in adventure 2, etc., then while compiling tables for publication, magic item A and magic item B are both added as rare results to fill out the lists). Interesting idea!<br /><br />Unrelated side note: I've always found it curious how magic weapons get special details all the time, yet magic armors and shields are often just a "plus" rating (at a quick glance, 0e has no special magic armors and 1e has only 4 [2 if I discount the shields that are just different against missile attacks] ). Granted, some of that is rolled up in secondary equipment like gauntlets of ogre power, cloak/boots of elvenkind, etc., and 2e AD&D at least had a ton of special cases for making armors out of monster parts to get bonuses, but it just seems like a strange area of omission.Ash Adlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09930777908505063233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78771200799717541782020-01-15T13:13:49.238-05:002020-01-15T13:13:49.238-05:00I wasn't alive back then, but I did check on W...I wasn't alive back then, but I did check on Wikipedia real quick and it seems like it was common to have coin-operated photocopiers in libraries in the 60's and 70's. I know that at least by the 90's most hardware stores did as well; I always went to the TrueValue to copy more character sheets when I was a kid because it was a couple miles closer than the library. But I think there's a good chance EGG had access to photocopying if he wanted it.<br /><br />The magic items are a good point, though, you're right. I don't have the values handy, but off the top of my head potions would be a few hundred each and a +1 piece of equipment might be 1000 XP. So that might increase your calculated total to be enough for a party of 4-6 members to reach 2nd level.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-28172572511321334692020-01-15T07:18:40.925-05:002020-01-15T07:18:40.925-05:00I thought experience was divided by player charact...I thought experience was divided by player characters so if 8 did it all and lived at 6400 experience that's 800 each. What am I confusing here.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00921846587564953979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-28174844433412392432020-01-14T22:23:59.302-05:002020-01-14T22:23:59.302-05:00Right -- Gygax even explicitly says that in Vol-3,...Right -- Gygax even explicitly says that in Vol-3, p. 8 ("Maintaining Freshness"). That said, I could easily imagine him taking the "lazy DM" route and just not bothering at some point. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.com