tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post9119300517022932589..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Dungeon Treasure RevisitedDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-79197216069057603732022-11-26T12:19:12.080-05:002022-11-26T12:19:12.080-05:00Glad you checked in here! Sounds like an awesome g...Glad you checked in here! Sounds like an awesome game to me. I've been doing more work on this issue the last year or so -- have lots of analysis of Gygax's Monsters & Treasure Assortment on tap, which I think may be the best reflection of what he intended (but so much it'll take some time to write it up). Last month in particular I was crunching on a streamlined generation system. In short, I think some generous big treasures are very appropriate (both game-wise and for verisimilitude). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-44758774334238745462022-11-20T04:02:54.844-05:002022-11-20T04:02:54.844-05:00Super old post, but wanted to say I found this rea...Super old post, but wanted to say I found this reassuring. I've been struggling with the 'placed' treasures in my OD&D megadungeon campaign, feeling they might be too generous. Seeing the high value on your table for total treasure even outside of the 'placed' hoards and bearing in mind I'm working under different assumptions namely:<br /><br />- my levels are more than twice as big as assumed (120+ rooms)<br />- I'm running an open table game with a wide range of people dropping in and out (skewing the gross party level up requirements higher)<br />- I'm working with parties of 6 players in each session<br />- I would never expect parties to 'clear' a whole level (and so would need to account for missed treasure)<br />- Fairly high rate of PC death! (in a campaign where replacement PCs start at Level 1).<br /><br />Now I feel a bit more free n easy placing the bigger hoards and these super valuable jewellery items. Thanks!Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944829206045717727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78610223642041347032020-07-31T00:16:39.277-04:002020-07-31T00:16:39.277-04:00AFW: Thanks a bunch for that link. Posted a commen...AFW: Thanks a bunch for that link. Posted a comment there that I'm still unovinced. (I wish the pre-D&D draft were more widely available so we could look at that.)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-55232875352412586042020-04-27T07:21:14.566-04:002020-04-27T07:21:14.566-04:00https://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/03/character-g...https://boggswood.blogspot.com/2020/03/character-growth-and-dungeon-stocking.html?m=1A.F.W Juniorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15868768368133083012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-6668756609397127072014-05-23T00:15:46.425-04:002014-05-23T00:15:46.425-04:00Note that a fairly rough model of XP gained from t...Note that a fairly rough model of XP gained from treasure is 95% at 1st level, and decreasing about 1% per level thereafter, to about 75% at 20th level.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-39027951394610521472014-03-03T13:09:18.962-05:002014-03-03T13:09:18.962-05:00Three other points that DHBoggs himself reminded m...Three other points that DHBoggs himself reminded me of in a very nice document that he sent me (which I would perhaps emphasize more heavily than he does):<br /><br />(1) The fact that many monster types appearing in the OD&D random charts have no Vol-2 listing, and thus no treasure types and necessarily must be filled in by some other method (insects, animals, NPC fighters, clerics, magic-users, etc.)<br /><br />(2) It is interesting how the Holmes p. 34 paragraph says both to use treasure types in the dungeon (3rd sentence) and to avoid doing so except for large numbers of monsters (7th sentence). As Zenopus points out, the last sentence was added by Gygax as annotation to Holmes' manuscript.<br /><br />(3) Gygax repeats this latter point in AD&D MM, p. 5: "The use of treasure type to determine the treasure guarded by a creature in a dungeon is not generally recommended".<br />Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-23315810258517643402014-03-01T13:26:58.667-05:002014-03-01T13:26:58.667-05:00Those are also really good data points, thanks to ...Those are also really good data points, thanks to you guys for those.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-25456802593850771392014-02-27T20:29:28.301-05:002014-02-27T20:29:28.301-05:00The Holmes rulebook actually says in two places (a...The Holmes rulebook actually says in two places (and these were comments added by Gary, not Holmes himself) that the "TREASURE TYPES" are recommended for use "only when there are exceptionally large numbers of low level monsters guarding them, or if the monsters are of exceptional strength (such as dragons)" (pg 22, idea repeated on page 34). Gary goes on to state that the treasures in the Monster & Treasure Assortment (found in the early Holmes sets) is a better guideline for individual encounters.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-49738622099521881422014-02-26T20:25:13.580-05:002014-02-26T20:25:13.580-05:00The name "Prize Table" in BtPbD implies ...The name "Prize Table" in BtPbD implies to me that Dave made it up. At least initially. Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-64563080444487427002014-02-26T11:01:33.711-05:002014-02-26T11:01:33.711-05:00ToTF is a good case in point. True that the 1st l...ToTF is a good case in point. True that the 1st level contains scores of troops who do have treasure and a 10% possibility for magic items. Much more interesting however are the monsters - The medusa on the first and second level, the ghouls, the common and "true" trolls on the second level and so forth. If you look at the treasures the monsters posses, they all fall within the parameters of the treasure type for that monster. <br /><br />As a side note, I find it unlikely that Arneson developed the Treasure Type tables as we have them. He did use a lettering system for magic sword treasures and may have developed some other treasure type list, but the Treasure Types as we have them assigned to particular monsters are something Gygax seems to have developed and tinkered with as there are changes in every table we have - from the D&D draft to 3lbb's to Holmes to the Monster Manual..DHBoggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02170439175265397893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-85857488858347911152014-02-25T21:58:06.843-05:002014-02-25T21:58:06.843-05:00I guess I could be convinced of that; also what co...I guess I could be convinced of that; also what comes to mind is Arneson's original Temple of the Frog (in Sup-II) where the dungeon rooms are actually housing 60, 80, 100, 150, or 250 guards each. <br /><br />So even if that part of my origin theory is totally wrong (sounds likely), it's still compatible with part of Vol-3 being written later and saying something different, i.e., referencing a different table for dungeon treasures. Granted that none of the later adventures had hundreds per room, it seems easier to use some reasonable numbers per encounter and that Vol-3 treasure table (as opposed to constantly pro-rating lettered treasure types for much smaller dungeon numbers). Just a thought.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-71949927999586988012014-02-25T21:48:59.018-05:002014-02-25T21:48:59.018-05:00Great question. To be brutally honest, I don't...Great question. To be brutally honest, I don't play with an ongoing campaign these days to see the effects on real players (usually a few times a year in convention settings for me now). <br /><br />I do remember that one of the most exciting and memorable games I ran in high school was in a dungeon when the players found a platinum-with-gems crown worth something like 10,000 gp (randomly rolled on DMG p. 26). At first they actually disbelieved it, assuming it was some kind of trick (granted I was renowned for stinginess). Then they fell through a pit to the next level and were cut off from the entrance between sessions. They were like completely sweating bullets over whether they'd get back to the surface with that record-setting treasure (we could all anticipate the killer irony if they failed to do so). <br /><br />So my intuition right now is that the the rare-but-huge treasures are more memorable targets. To use a sporting metaphor, if I must I prefer watching something like football (any variety, with rare scoring) over basketball (sort like competing dripping faucets at slightly different rates). Even though I preferred basketball from a playing-mechanics-strategy angle.<br /><br />Again excellent question -- if anyone else wants to chime in with an opinion ("What's better for player/DM -- small regular treasure or rare big ones?") I'd like to hear it.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-75344946237707168622014-02-25T21:40:35.803-05:002014-02-25T21:40:35.803-05:00I agree, I was somewhat surprised by how much this...I agree, I was somewhat surprised by how much this system, played by the book in Vol-3, resembles the 3E system.<br /><br />Since I play with OD&D these days, I never even thought about the AD&D magic item XP awards. I totally don't know how that what affect things -- interesting open question!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-90031868876589951162014-02-25T15:19:53.737-05:002014-02-25T15:19:53.737-05:00I'll need to come back to this when I have mor...I'll need to come back to this when I have more time and I need to send you an essay I worte for CoZ backers on this topic with more details, but the treasure tables were most definitely created for use in dungeons - there are a number of sources saying so, including Holmes D&D p34, first paragraph of Treasures. <br /><br />It is also worth noting that the 1973 draft of D&D (Dalluhn) makes no mention of "outdoor" encounters - to your point about D&D evolving during writing - in relation to the "possible numbers" column or treasure types. It's clear referee's were expected to adjust actual numbers encountered to the strength of the party and "possible numbers" merely defined the range. DHBoggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02170439175265397893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-18432779863750206242014-02-25T12:34:10.835-05:002014-02-25T12:34:10.835-05:00I suppose then each DM needs to figure out whether...I suppose then each DM needs to figure out whether he wants to include single large treasures, to encourage exploration or to place in a dangerous area which the players may decide to bypass, or many smaller treasures. I've found that smaller hoards are more easily split up by the party, give a steady stream of income rather than a big exciting payout, a player who misses a session isn't taking the risk of being completely behind on treasure division, are harder to keep track of and carry, harder for the party Thief to nab out from under everyone's noses, and less surprising / exciting. A large treasure also lends the false sense that there is more and better loot just around the corner, whereas the reality is that the dungeon level has just been "wrung out" and you need to descend or else waste your time scrounging for coppers. <br /><br />So, plusses and minuses for both. Which do you prefer Delta? Is it different as a player or as a DM?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-87647289622444479102014-02-25T11:15:36.488-05:002014-02-25T11:15:36.488-05:00We know that Dave had some sort of system that bas...We know that Dave had some sort of system that based treasure values on the dungeon level as that is the system used in the Dungeon! boardgame which predates Gary's involvement. <br /><br />My B/X DM made the same observation that leveling is almost entirely dependent on gems. Our party will often run back to town as soon as we find any. <br /><br />Also, if you use the AD&D DMG system, where monster "level" is based on the XP for killing a single monster, you can extrapolate that to include a large groups of lesser monsters whose total XP equals the single large monster. Doing this, and basing treasure on dungeon level, gives you a system that is pretty close to the one that 3e uses. <br /><br />Finally, how will the XP tables be affected if XP are given for magic items?Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.com