tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post7359505428246796910..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Spells Through The Ages – ESP and ClairvoyanceDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-23501448638532677332017-06-04T18:40:11.845-04:002017-06-04T18:40:11.845-04:00That's lovely. I think I always overlooked the...That's lovely. I think I always overlooked the punning nature of the AD&D material components. Thanks for that!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-49368161766392377512017-05-11T01:20:43.001-04:002017-05-11T01:20:43.001-04:00I would just point out that the material component... I would just point out that the material component, the copper piece, seems to be derived from the popular saying "a penny for your thoughts". Although it seems to have been lost on the third edition crew, who made it into a reusable focus. Retromancerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03001000119685884211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-86607469836941406352014-07-15T12:49:28.045-04:002014-07-15T12:49:28.045-04:00Noted. I also don't think I've ever seen a...Noted. I also don't think I've ever seen anyone memorize ESP, but a <i>medallion of ESP</i> is pretty sweet (at least in the <i>Dungeon</i> boardgame).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36357985839761005662014-07-15T11:12:08.957-04:002014-07-15T11:12:08.957-04:00In all my years of playing D&D, I don't re...In all my years of playing D&D, I don't recall anyone EVER using ESP or clairvoyance/clairaudience (nor "detect thoughts" when I played DND3).<br /><br />Ever.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-70320980448860398772014-07-15T10:16:16.131-04:002014-07-15T10:16:16.131-04:00The crown is a stretch, but my assumption was that...The crown is a stretch, but my assumption was that it worked more like blocking line-of-sight (despite the distances involved) than like a Faraday cage that has to block omnidirectionally due to reflected strange radiations (or whatever), but the latter makes at least a much sense.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-31418584058901386482014-07-15T02:29:34.716-04:002014-07-15T02:29:34.716-04:00Huh, that's a novel interpretation of the meta...Huh, that's a novel interpretation of the metal-protection language -- I would never have to say an object like a crown blocks the spell. When the spells says "coating" or "sheeting" I would naturally assume being totally enwrapped by the substance (as in a box or special room). Which is why it seemed like the range was the more broadly critical factor.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-51542586751681031332014-07-15T02:25:31.710-04:002014-07-15T02:25:31.710-04:00Yeah, that's what I'm leaning towards myse...Yeah, that's what I'm leaning towards myself (in the prior versions context).Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-70371115195279902132014-07-15T02:23:49.016-04:002014-07-15T02:23:49.016-04:00Yeah, that scrying skill really made me scowl in 3...Yeah, that scrying skill really made me scowl in 3E, it just really didn't feel right to have this singleton very specific magic skill (even though it didn't connect direct to ESP/Clairvoyance/Clairaudience). Also didn't know that 3.5 had removed that.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-17985645474776447352014-07-15T02:16:43.990-04:002014-07-15T02:16:43.990-04:00That's interesting that 3.5 knocked the ranges...That's interesting that 3.5 knocked the ranges back down from unlimited, I didn't bother look that up before. Good info, thanks.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-7509567882083175842014-07-14T17:14:46.792-04:002014-07-14T17:14:46.792-04:00A lot of the power of ESP and clairvoyance/scrying...A lot of the power of ESP and clairvoyance/scrying comes from assumptions about the advent of practical defenses against it. Let's say gold and silver are equivalent to lead (or, at least, used to conceal it). Can you spy on the king on his gilded throne, or read the thoughts of a noble wearing a coronet (or gilded helm)? If the walls are packed with lead-ore rubble (or the dungeon is a converted lead mine) can you see into it? Can you see into the Amber Room?. <br /><br />3e seemed to assume on expensive spellcasting services as the primary way to protect oneself against scrying and teleportation (and hence the forum-goers scry-and-die tactics), but the price of even one high-level spell would buy an awful lot of lead (or even silver and gold) foil.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-29027686626511964382014-07-14T17:00:32.585-04:002014-07-14T17:00:32.585-04:00With regards to languages, for 3E I would probably...With regards to languages, for 3E I would probably rule that thoughts are understood regardless of language (since every target is allowed a saving throw) while in previous versions I would probably require the caster to understand the language of the creature.Monkapotomushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15863829877299943297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-32597568194834659992014-07-14T16:57:16.551-04:002014-07-14T16:57:16.551-04:00That's one of the few things 3.5 got right.That's one of the few things 3.5 got right.Monkapotomushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15863829877299943297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-52322182812620592602014-07-14T16:50:55.929-04:002014-07-14T16:50:55.929-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-51540236826047222022014-07-14T16:50:39.552-04:002014-07-14T16:50:39.552-04:003e (but not 3.5) also had the "scry" ski...3e (but not 3.5) also had the "scry" skill, which for some reason I had recalled as interacting with the Clairaudience/Clairvoyance spell in addition to the full on Scrying spell. Requiring a skill investment and roll could be a way to check the power of unlimited range, albeit at a stiff cost in system complexity.<br /><br />Scry has probably the least helpful and useful skill description in 3e (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD3e:Scry_Skill) being as it just refers you to a bunch of unspecified spells and magical items and notes that it can be used untrained even though it's class-exclusive (which is a very awkward rule intersection).Joshua L. Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03358762663581842879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-69697739887666660462014-07-14T16:31:01.542-04:002014-07-14T16:31:01.542-04:00On second thought, the 3.5 version of the spells d...On second thought, the 3.5 version of the spells don't bother me as much as the 2E versions do. With 3.5, clairvoyance/clairaudience has a shorter range, targets a place, and takes 10 minutes to cast while Scrying targets one person who gets a saving throw and takes 1 hour to cast. Both spells can be detected with the See Invisibility spell and dispelled.<br /><br />The only immediate problem that I see is that Scrying is only one level higher but is a huge jump in power. I might move it up a couple of levels.and make it a 6th level spell that requires something associated with the target.<br /><br />The 2E spells I would probably limit to the same range as ESP and require the crystal ball for unlimited range.Monkapotomushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15863829877299943297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-9947392254617522432014-07-14T16:08:24.757-04:002014-07-14T16:08:24.757-04:00Honestly, we never decided on that since it never ...Honestly, we never decided on that since it never came up. Pretty much the only characters to ever try and use a crystal ball were wizards. The other players looked to their own sources for information when needed and left the "ball gazing" to the wizard. <br /><br />Looking back at our house rules document I'm reminded that the rule change was implemented for Scrying since 3.5 D&D shortened the ranges on clairvoyance/clairaudience to long range (400' +40'/level) and left the spell Scrying (which combines sight and sound) to unlimited range. <br /><br />Assuming 3E, my thought is if a non-wizard wants to use a crystal ball than the effect would be the minimum of a wizard able to cast the spell (7th level) with no additional benefits while a wizard who uses it could use their caster level for all checks and include additional detection abilities they have active (like detect magic, detect invisibility, etc). Monkapotomushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15863829877299943297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-4826030089473102352014-07-14T14:23:55.445-04:002014-07-14T14:23:55.445-04:00That's really interesting that it sounds like ...That's really interesting that it sounds like you independently came up with connecting those spells to the <i>crystal ball</i> for unlimited usage. Is the crystal ball likewise only of use if you have a <i>clairvoyance</i> spell memorized, say?Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-84158026352919330942014-07-14T10:57:35.597-04:002014-07-14T10:57:35.597-04:00My friends and I have really only worked with the ...My friends and I have really only worked with the 2E AD&D and the 3E versions of the spells. <br /><br />ESP I don't find to be too overpowered since it is one creature at a time. With 2E I ruled that you knew there were multiple creatures in the area but could only listen to one at a time. For 3E I flattened the time requirements so that round 1 you detected the number and strength of minds and round 2 you could listen to the thoughts of a specific creature. 3E really weakened the spell by providing a saving throw for every creature no matter what.<br /><br />My friends and I also tended to limit the use of the Clairaudience/Clairvoyance spells since it has been difficult to come up with a useful definition of "familiar or obvious" that made the spells useful but not overpowered and could be consistently applied. After much debate we agreed that the spells would require a crystal ball or scrying device of some sort to use at all. <br /><br />After reading the OD&D description above, I think I may propose changing the spells so that the range of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is the same as ESP and to get the unlimited range you either need a higher level version of the spells or a scrying device.Monkapotomushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15863829877299943297noreply@blogger.com