tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post479197483654789659..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: The Problem with the EndgameDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-61074214342487352872016-01-12T01:32:33.992-05:002016-01-12T01:32:33.992-05:00I have seen those, and I got to participate in at ...I have seen those, and I got to participate in at least one afternoon's play with those rules by one of the designers. It's a little complicated for my tastes; even in the one playtest I was in the person running it seemed to find it challenging to run in practice. That's just one data point, but I much prefer my <i>Book of War</i> rules (which got published after this post was initially made), and if I get a chance to present domain rules it will also be a lot more streamlined and immediately playable (as a goal). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-43353421922021789072016-01-11T18:28:43.671-05:002016-01-11T18:28:43.671-05:00Have you seen the Domain at War rules by Autarch. ...Have you seen the Domain at War rules by Autarch. A rule set for ACKS domain play, including mass battles. <br />I was wondering how you felt about these rules. pileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06008654668836414680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-3331882844433972652010-02-26T09:44:51.453-05:002010-02-26T09:44:51.453-05:00Could we save our Superhero through strict use of ...Could we save our Superhero through strict use of morale rules? While he might be killed in a matter of a few rounds, he should be able to take a lot of enemies down with him. Like 40. How much of a good soldeir do you have to be to throw your life away just to be part of the critical mass? Even the low-level commander would be loathe to give an order that would only risk his own life but compromise his leadership. (Who would want to work for the guy who sacrafices his men to take down superheroes).<br /><br />Another approach, that others have alluded to, is to say that in order for the players to direct their armies requires that their characters are in a position to see what's going on and to relay orders to the front. So, if you're in the battle, you can't run the battle.Brian (brian_cooper at hotmail d o t com)https://www.blogger.com/profile/02805168206752602148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-12264824825146626902009-12-20T12:42:15.698-05:002009-12-20T12:42:15.698-05:00I am not sure this is an accurate observation, to ...I am not sure this is an accurate observation, to be honest. Perhaps it might be worth taking a look at the conversion for the <i>Battle of Five Armies</i> to <i>Chain Mail</i> rules in <i>Dragon</i> #1. The issue of scale seems to be addressed there in some manner.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-58565160993691534742009-12-07T12:21:01.405-05:002009-12-07T12:21:01.405-05:00Keen observations sure, but I think its a question...Keen observations sure, but I think its a question that boils down to a fantasy worldview. Before anything can be changed, you have to ask yourself some very fundamental questions:<br /><br />1) A D&D hero gets mired in a grand melee of scale... exactly how long is he expected to survive?<br />2) Is a D&D superhero as invincible against 20 men as he is 1?<br /><br />You could take what I call the "Dynasty Warriors" approach to the world view, in that 8th level characters truly are champions, with no worry of ever falling in battle, lest they meet an opponent of skill in the slog. That's certainly how it works in many kinds of fiction... from the Dynasty Warriors video game I mention to something like the movies Gladiator or Gangs of New York, or the Lord of the Rings stories. They fight their way through crowds like the untouchable avatar/main characters they are... singlehandedly making sizable impact on the battle.<br /><br />The opposite rationale is likewise reasonable and backed up in myth... that no man, regardless of strength, size or magical aptitude, would ever be able to beat hundreds of men singlehandedly. He'd beat many, sure, but eventually the law of averages will work against him. He'll tire. He'll run out of magic. He'll be dogpiled... overwhelmed and torn to bits. In real history, its almost unheard of for authority figures to participate in the battle directly. They sit in camp, strategizing and figuring in their tents with their advisors, while their loyal subjects go toe-to-toe in epic battles lasting days or months.<br /><br />As always, I would suggest first deciding on what you want to model, and then choosing a model that best fits your game world. To keep the ancient China romantics comparison going, it was not uncommon for generals to duel each other during a battle for the sake of honor and their troops' morale, but when it came time for the grand melee or siege they would never take the field.<br /><br />Personally, I think the single-man-acting-as-a-unit model makes little sense. I would more think something that even the mightiest hero would be in command of a unit... his personal guard, his best armored cavalry, what have you. His unit fights as any other (or perhaps better, as they are elite/under direct command) and as long as the unit survives, he does. What happens to the leader... is he killed, captured, executed? Does he die with his men in the field? Any of these things could be possible. That's how glory is won in battle... having the enemy commander at your feet. I think a system that takes that as its primary consideration would be a good place to start as any.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02944933217866350308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-67821087260259545522009-12-07T11:09:21.426-05:002009-12-07T11:09:21.426-05:00Very interesting case study, Jerry.Very interesting case study, Jerry.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-28938415154167049202009-12-07T10:01:43.257-05:002009-12-07T10:01:43.257-05:00This is a fantastic post which obliquely touches o...This is a fantastic post which obliquely touches on the "what to do with high level characters" issue that comes up in long running campaigns. In 26 years, only two of my campaigns got to that point. <br /><br />For the first one, the end game involved nations colliding, so we decided to wrap it up with mass combat rules. (I think it was Battlesystem... not sure though... been a while.) What actually happened was quite amusing. These heroes who had wrought miracles throughout the lands simply got mowed down by the nameless masses. I panicked and began to scale the numbers back... almost to the point where a unit was just a handful of opponents rather than tens of... but it still didn't help, and it became ridiculous fast. Might as well have just fielded one on one units.<br /><br />After promising the players to count it all as a big mistake and offer a do-over in something more sane, we continued the scenario as it stood. The party prevailed by pulling the surviving heroes out of the fray and sending their own footmen, sans leaders, after the opposing villains. As predicted, the villains also went down fast under the weight of low level masses, and so the heroes won the day... sort of.<br /><br />We ended up redoing it with some custom rules... basically inflating the heroes relative to the troops, but my long winded point here is that Delta is spot on with post.Jerry Holmeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02719989580438436034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-298975896004541552009-12-06T11:29:45.619-05:002009-12-06T11:29:45.619-05:00Chgowiz, thanks for the kind words. Can't say ...Chgowiz, thanks for the kind words. Can't say as I've played HOTT/DBA yet to date.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-2127635633858002122009-12-06T09:42:12.781-05:002009-12-06T09:42:12.781-05:00This is really good stuff! I haven't played Ch...This is really good stuff! I haven't played Chainmail or S&S to discover the things you've found in that game. I'm curious if you've played HOTT/DBA? I have been kicking around how to make it adaptable to including D&D characters. <br /><br />I'm really curious about your thoughts about the second part of the end-game. I'm looking forward to reading about it.Michael S/Chgowizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02052820400496340137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-9971496532667210202009-12-05T19:36:41.855-05:002009-12-05T19:36:41.855-05:00"I prefer PCs to be "killable" by s..."I prefer PCs to be "killable" by squads of nameless pikemen...that is the reality of field warfare. PCs may be "superheroic" but they are not superhuman; at least not in MY games."<br /><br />That's fine and I agree in principle. The problem is that they die <i>really, really fast</i>. So fast if you blink you'll miss them entirely.<br /><br />For example: Let's say your mass-turn is equal to 3 rounds of standard D&D (somewhat as per Swords & Spells, etc.). If your 8th-level fighter gets in it with just simple swordsmen (to say NOTHING of a row of pikes), then he will take 3 hits per turn and be dead in 2 turns flat (see prior posts on HD vs. hits taken).<br /><br />It's hard to qualify that as "super" in any way. You might as well not even bother having the figure in the game, at that rate. The rules I mention above aren't making the heroes unkillable, they're munging things <i>so they don't automatically die in the very first turn of any combat</i>.<br /><br />It would be nice if that were explicit in S&S (for example) and not just something you discover by accident.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-69642841281499644192009-12-05T19:29:13.919-05:002009-12-05T19:29:13.919-05:00Let me be clear that I consider the mass combat to...Let me be clear that I consider the mass combat to be only half of the reputed D&D endgame. I do fucus on it here (it's important), but a full treatment would also require a discussion of "managing castles, baronies" as I refer to in the first sentence.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-6920184290193207282009-12-05T18:54:15.243-05:002009-12-05T18:54:15.243-05:00I never put much stock into the 'endgame'....I never put much stock into the 'endgame'. It is something in over 15 years of gaming I have done exactly once and only when we wanted to revisit old characters or change up the landscape of our world. <br /><br /> To be honest I found it to be a separate game than D&D and was not very thrilled with the results. It may work for some but not me.Joshua Sherrerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17308286154275114804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-7278561281162666082009-12-05T18:00:49.234-05:002009-12-05T18:00:49.234-05:00A fascinating post. I hope you continue your inves...A fascinating post. I hope you continue your investigations on this score.James Maliszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341941102398271464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-31847268393371700462009-12-05T16:45:15.043-05:002009-12-05T16:45:15.043-05:00As Robert posted: I think the "endgame" ...As Robert posted: I think the "endgame" is much more than simply mass combat, regardless of what Mentzer's Companion rules might say (the only way to become a viscount or duke is by conquest? what about political marriages, usurpation, and assassination?).<br /><br />That being said, I agree with your observations and ask, well what do you want your game to be about? I prefer PCs to be "killable" by squads of nameless pikemen...that is the reality of field warfare. PCs may be "superheroic" but they are not superhuman; at least not in MY games. <br /><br />I find the Swords and Spells approach to be the closest thing to a workable mass combat system that is INTERNALLY CONSISTENT with D&D rules as written. Unfortunately, the attempt to match it with the clunkier chainmail and the addition of chunkier tactics rules makes the thing a miasma, difficult to penetrate. I find the "seek out foes of your own station" rules in S&S to be excellent...allow your Theoden and Eowyn characters to LEAD the Rohirrim, but then FIGHT the Nazgul king. That's really the only way to make PCs heroic without being "superhuman."<br /><br />(and nope, not a fan of Mr. Niles)JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08532311924539491087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-46280422721720842532009-12-05T15:44:27.557-05:002009-12-05T15:44:27.557-05:00Interesting observations.
For what it’s worth, I ...Interesting observations.<br /><br />For what it’s worth, I never really saw the endgame as consisting of many battles. More politics, development, management, business, sending lower-level adventurers on quests, etc.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.com