tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post4171232668907323732..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Late-Era Gygax on Phantasmal ForcesDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-22103168322003250552017-07-06T13:41:56.805-04:002017-07-06T13:41:56.805-04:00Thanks for the comment! I'm so glad you feel t...Thanks for the comment! I'm so glad you feel the same way to appreciate what I'm writing about. It totally fascinates me all the time.<br /><br />Consider also getting Jon Peterson's book <i>Playing At the World</i>. He's done such a great job at telling the history of gaming in the century-or-so up to D&D from a number of different perspectives. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-942676566181550602017-07-06T13:40:30.440-04:002017-07-06T13:40:30.440-04:00Well of course you're right. This would presum...Well of course you're right. This would presume some added spells to the magic-user's list in that fashion. Taking the Gygax interpretation would also require the Gygaxian expectation that there are other spells out in the world permitting those kinds of superior effects seen in dungeon trickery. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-27678876949112290592017-07-06T03:47:39.022-04:002017-07-06T03:47:39.022-04:00Sure...but the illusionist class doesn't appea...Sure...but the illusionist class doesn't appear in OD&D.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-21834799987605668232017-07-05T20:07:07.599-04:002017-07-05T20:07:07.599-04:00I have no opinion on the topic of Phantasmal Force...I have no opinion on the topic of Phantasmal Force, but on books, I too was someone who learned by reading the books (in my case, my neighbor's 1st edition AD&D books). I do find the historical delving into the intent of Gygax et al to be of great interest, since my interpretation did not always match his intent. Since I don't have any experience with Chainmail or Wilderness Survival, learning where there are assumptions of familiarity help me fill in the gaps in the games I play.Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718188146918003275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-9098075921515031852017-07-04T21:35:23.813-04:002017-07-04T21:35:23.813-04:00I broadly agree. On the specifics of Gygax's r...I broadly agree. On the specifics of Gygax's responses, I think I've read enough of his writing that I'd expect him to get sarcastic if someone tried to draw a definitive line between RAW and how he played. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-11852073222127868362017-07-04T21:33:10.241-04:002017-07-04T21:33:10.241-04:00This is an excellent point. Perhaps if we include ...This is an excellent point. Perhaps if we include other spells at higher levels that are more generalized (and also longer-lasting?). For example, the AD&D PHB has illusionist-class spells <i>spectral forces</i> at 3rd level, and <i>permanent illusion</i> and <i>programmed illusion</i> at 6th. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-74761489094654382772017-07-04T21:29:20.865-04:002017-07-04T21:29:20.865-04:00There's, like, no way to dislike that. :-)There's, like, no way to dislike that. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-14272479453173194522017-07-04T21:27:38.555-04:002017-07-04T21:27:38.555-04:00It's one of may favorite clarifications I got ...It's one of may favorite clarifications I got from reading OD&D!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-85985166995395339352017-07-04T21:27:06.601-04:002017-07-04T21:27:06.601-04:00Great observations. The addition of web forums &am...Great observations. The addition of web forums & online sites has definitely been a huge plus to the resources we have to learn about the game. (And also to broadcast our own thoughts about it. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-13800390349969214422017-07-04T20:19:34.086-04:002017-07-04T20:19:34.086-04:00However, I could totally see Gygax answering the q...However, I could totally see Gygax answering the question with "what goes in my game regardless of edition" which is a different position from answering what is the rule FOR that edition. People get their wires crossed sometimes. Like how the comparison of "Steve's game" to "Gary's game" has as much to do with standing adjudications and house rules as the content of the adventures. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-81057920772017762352017-07-04T20:15:59.628-04:002017-07-04T20:15:59.628-04:00I like it being specific, because that opens up ot...I like it being specific, because that opens up other spell types for Illusionists (illusory wall comes to mind), which restricts their power a little and gives them more interesting choices to make. This also makes it more palatable for the DM to adjudicate illusions more generously, because the illusionist is working within some restrictions already. It also leaves more room to rule that the illusion operates independently unless specifically directed by the caster, because the spell was constructed with some built-in assumptions about what the spell could do (like having different computer programs to do different tasks). So while JB and I are looking at the same issue, I see it as a positive because there are opportunities for new spells and refinement of the Illusionist. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-14098797178509487522017-07-03T16:49:35.743-04:002017-07-03T16:49:35.743-04:00I have a problem with the interpretation, as there...I have a problem with the interpretation, as there are no other illusion spells to fall back on in OD&D (or B/X) if you want to do something besides a "force of creatures." I suppose some effects might be subsumed under a liberal interpretation of HALLUCINATORY TERRAIN (making a hovel appear to be a mansion or vice versa), but simple illusions disappear from the game. As such enchantments are a staple of fantasy, folklore, and S&S tales, I find this narrow view of the spell irritating.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-56524803666815357772017-07-03T16:02:38.121-04:002017-07-03T16:02:38.121-04:00I think I roughly agree with Gygax here. I just ra...I think I roughly agree with Gygax here. I just ran a game for my nephews and when they asked what it did, I said they could make it look like anything attacking. So re MU picked it. He made it look like fire-ball firing cannons. Which I thought was rad. But he didn't tell the other characters. So as the whole place went up in illusory flames the ones who failed their I or W checks had to save for ½ dmg! Fun times.Tetramorphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07253316716885460459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-24648390706127014902017-07-03T12:18:27.374-04:002017-07-03T12:18:27.374-04:00http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com.br/2012/02/spells-th...http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com.br/2012/02/spells-through-ages-phantasmal-forces.html?showComment=1492952643888#c6618337462966122626G. B. Verashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07321019711309446662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-17657096826689512852017-07-03T12:17:56.595-04:002017-07-03T12:17:56.595-04:00That is interesting... If I had time to do some re...That is interesting... If I had time to do some research, I think there is a lot of reference material of "phantasmal forces" being conjured to aid.<br /><br />Well... Looking that your post on Phantasmal Forces through the ages, there is two references in the comments.G. B. Verashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07321019711309446662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36612724008029571232017-07-03T10:35:53.781-04:002017-07-03T10:35:53.781-04:00Very insightful. I always assumed that "force...Very insightful. I always assumed that "force/forces" in the name of the spell referred to eldritch energies (as in a "force field"). Having it pointed out that it refers to military forces is a helpful clarification.Geoffrey McKinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00042661843714609025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-3723392668302910392017-07-03T09:42:05.573-04:002017-07-03T09:42:05.573-04:00sigh I’m so use to most web forms taking some vari...<i>sigh</i> I’m so use to most web forms taking some variant of Markdown, I forgot to add paragraph markup.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-41516877432297647652017-07-03T09:40:29.196-04:002017-07-03T09:40:29.196-04:00
I have never really been happy with Phantasmal F...<br />I have never really been happy with Phantasmal Force. (Being most familiar with the oAD&D version.)<br />On the one hand, it almost seems too open-ended.<br />On the other hand, tha lack of any sound makes it seem too limited. Even a static object would need to make sound when interacted with to be convincing enough to cause damage. Or even convincing enough for reliable lesser effects.<br />Dropping the “no sound” limitation but limiting it to a military unit or similar group of creatures... I’m not sure that it makes it significantly easier to judge, but I do think it makes for a more interesting spell. And leaves more room for other illusory spells to be created.<br />On books: I may have learned a lot of the game from the books, but I certainly learned a lot more once I found Dragonsfoot and the Pied Piper forums. Those forums were just text as well, though. Everything I learned there could have been in the books.<br />The real point about learning the game from books is this: The game can be learned more efficiently through play than through books.<br />Although maybe books + play is even better.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16733274876782876659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-9527155047990966622017-07-03T09:12:45.990-04:002017-07-03T09:12:45.990-04:00Oh, so that's why it is called Phantasmal FORC...Oh, so that's why it is called Phantasmal FORCE. :)<br />It would for sure be a cleaner spell to adjudicate (mostly*), don't know if it would be a better spell. I would have to look at it in relation to other spells of its level to consider if it is a spell that would actually be used. Or if it is too single purpose.<br />* I could see some issued around "forces" of oddball creatures, very tall, very small, odd movement capabilities, etc.Baquieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357103428591599364noreply@blogger.com