tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post3107712583306329928..comments2024-03-15T11:16:44.045-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Silver WeaponsDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-84895903953470127142016-01-29T14:08:56.538-05:002016-01-29T14:08:56.538-05:00Boy, those are super good catches, thanks for poin...Boy, those are super good catches, thanks for pointing those out. <br /><br />I would seriously stab a guy to get a PDF scan of the 1st printing OD&D; so much of this stuff keeps popping out of that analysis. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-80119327930370777422016-01-29T14:06:41.570-05:002016-01-29T14:06:41.570-05:00It is baked into my rules that all of the Heroes a...It is baked into my rules that all of the Heroes and Wizards are assumed to have magic weapons already, so I do agree with that.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-53177678312773797062016-01-28T23:47:59.963-05:002016-01-28T23:47:59.963-05:00A few points about the early editions:
-The 1st p...A few points about the early editions:<br /><br />-The 1st printing of OD&D is missing the sentence about silver weapons in the entry for Lycanthropes. It was added first to a Correction Sheet and then incorporated into the text. This may explain the difference in wording from all of the other usages.<br /><br />-I think there was more of an expectation in the early rules that silver weapons (other than arrows) were a treasure to be found, sort of a lesser magic item. Holmes includes a silver dagger in Room G of the Sample Dungeon. It's without value in the manuscript but Gygax added a note that it has a 50 gp value. And then in B2 there's a silver dagger with gems in its pommel worth 800 GP in room 62 (Crypt) of the Caves. Of course this expectation is not met by the treasure tables themselves, though one could replace a silver coin treasure with one in the form of a weapon.Zenopus Archiveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14069501995927451558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-30524076460015236442016-01-28T16:26:10.169-05:002016-01-28T16:26:10.169-05:00It also makes it a more interesting army-building ...It also makes it a more interesting army-building decision - do I want as many men as possible (ignore silver entirely), a few volleys of silver-tipped arrows (relatively cheap, but run the risk of running out before you slay all the beasts), or a cornucopia of silver armaments (putting you at a disadvantage against more numerous conventional foes). Also, if some units have silver and others don't, it will lead to interesting tactical situations in which certain units wish to specifically engage (or avoid) others.<br /><br />As an aside, another thought is to assume that any Hero or Wizard will be carrying a silver weapon; if the rest of the unit has no silver, then allow the character (only) to make an attack as though he were a single figure of the appropriate type (light infantry, cavalry, etc.)<br /><br />I know this is overstating the attack power of the single character, but personally I think it might be worth fudging that in his favor for two reasons:<br /><br />1) Even if the rest of the unit can't harm the lycanthropes, they could assist the Hero in other ways, such as by grappling the enemies or area-denial tactics.<br />2) Such a hopeless situation is when you really need a Hero to be, well, heroic!Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-34181105938084074882016-01-28T12:50:21.918-05:002016-01-28T12:50:21.918-05:00I think silver arrows only is a good way to go for...I think silver arrows only is a good way to go for a couple reasons:<br /><br />A: You just don't want to go toe to toe with lycanthropes and/or un-hurtable undead. <br /><br />Continuing the thought of scroll, giving melee based units Scrolls vs. undead/lycanthropes to keep the beasties off makes a bit more sense than expecting a bunch of pikemen to drop their pikes and pull out silver daggers to fend off a pack of claw/claw/biters. <br /><br />B: A unit armed with silver arrows can provide cover for other units that might have the misfortune of meeting weres or wraiths on the front lines. <br /><br />Seems like there's some tactical interest there. BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-14577612592574564952016-01-28T11:16:03.270-05:002016-01-28T11:16:03.270-05:00It's all in the eye of the beholder; to me, th...It's all in the eye of the beholder; to me, the tone of some other editions has said "this is a definitive list, you can't have anything that's not listed here" whereas 2E instilled a feeling of freedom to add my own material.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-80368285584345220322016-01-28T11:04:10.263-05:002016-01-28T11:04:10.263-05:00Ha!Ha!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-59770741006634622642016-01-28T11:02:38.887-05:002016-01-28T11:02:38.887-05:00Well, generally speaking, this is my problem with ...Well, generally speaking, this is my problem with the 2E AD&D rules; all of the new text is "maybe/coulda/shoulda" and basically throws it back in the DM's lap which I find unhelpful analytically. <br /><br />Moreover, if it's not in the Player's Handbook Equipment List then we have to assume that, by default, most 2E PC's will not have that as an option.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-81063144401271612362016-01-28T09:28:52.584-05:002016-01-28T09:28:52.584-05:00A table is only given for armor, but just before t...A table is only given for armor, but just before that there's another relevant section:<br /><br />Ornamentation <br /><br /><br />While ornamentation has no effect on the function of an item, it does increase the cost. Ornamented items can also enhance the status of the owner as a man of wealth and influence. Of course, it also marks the character as a target for thieves and robbers. <br /><br />Among the more popular types of ornamentation are jeweled mountings, engraving, embossing, inlaying, painting, plating, chiseling, chasing, etching, enameling, lacquering, carving, and gilding. Common items also can be made from rare and fantastic materials--perhaps as simple as silk or the wonderfully rare and incredibly supple hides of baby dragons. The cost of such items depends on the difficulty and skill of the work. It is best for you to decide a price (highly inflated over the original), although 10 times the normal cost can be used as a starting figure.<br /><br />The suggestion of plating would cover what some later sources would call "silvered" weapons, while the suggestion that "Common items... made from rare ... materials" would suggest the possibility metal items made wholly from silver.<br /><br />The suggestion of 10 times normal cost is also in the right ballpark compared to specifically-silver items from older editions. I don't have the Moldvay Basic book, but people seem to be mentioning 30G, which is 10x the 3G that a dagger costs in Men & Magic. A silver cross is 25G, which 12.5x the cost of a 2G wooden cross, while a silver-tipped arrow is rather more expensive, coming in at the same 5G that a pack of 20 normal arrows would cost. A tenfold increase is on the right order of magnitude, certainly.<br /><br />As for the "Armor Made From Unusual Materials Table," even though it's a bit of side conversation, one other thing to note is that it would cost somewhat more than the 2x stated because of the footnote stating that the material for these heavy objects must also be supplied at the expense of the player character. Thus, a 40 pound suit of mail would cost another 200G (40 lb. x 50 coins/lb. x 0.1 gold/silver) for a total of 350G, slightly less than 5x the cost of a standard coat of mail. Less than the 10x previously mentioned, but on the other hand, it suffers a penalty to the AC provided whereas an item using the "Ornamentation" rules isn't stated to suffer any degradation in performance.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-30057551247570265082016-01-27T18:44:59.155-05:002016-01-27T18:44:59.155-05:00Well, umbrellas are an unnecessary expense until i...Well, umbrellas are an unnecessary expense until it starts raining. ;) BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-32257114395216957332016-01-27T10:53:45.474-05:002016-01-27T10:53:45.474-05:00Yeah, the idea would be mass units (packs of werew...Yeah, the idea would be mass units (packs of werewolves, etc.), because they have less than the 10 HD cutoff to appear is individual heroes. <br /><br />Interesting idea with handling the silver weapons. Generally I try to avoid any resource record-keeping in BOW, but you're right that it is there for the spells; and this would synch up pretty well with the early editions that only have silver arrows. Although that would still be wasted expense if the opponent brings no lycanthropes to the table -- I think strategically it might still work out the same (game-theory wise). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-43497030623835803642016-01-27T10:48:50.761-05:002016-01-27T10:48:50.761-05:00I see that for armor only, not weapons (section: &...I see that for armor only, not weapons (section: "Armor Made of Unusual Metals (Optional Rule)").Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-51293414454344622632016-01-26T23:59:53.818-05:002016-01-26T23:59:53.818-05:00I guess my question regards to Book of War would b...I guess my question regards to Book of War would be would lycanthropes be a solitary monster type unit (which seems to fold in with fiction/legend) or are you supposing a team of were-creatures? <br /><br />One possible solution for silver weapons could be to treat them as kind of resembling a spell scroll. Price them by the attack. A unit of archers might have enough silver arrows for only a single volley. You want more "special" shots, you gotta spend the gp. That would make it less rock/paper/scissors, I think, if you make it a burnable enhancement to troops rather than an intrinsic quality of the unit. BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-18835779685451178982016-01-26T12:07:54.481-05:002016-01-26T12:07:54.481-05:00While silver weapons are not in the equipment list...While silver weapons are not in the equipment list in the PHB for AD&D 2nd edition, a provision for them is included in the "Money and Equipment" chapter of the DMG, pricing both weapons and armor made of silver at 2x the listed price in the PHB.Brandon Lighterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02502256395819389281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-41384546861217479442016-01-26T10:53:28.484-05:002016-01-26T10:53:28.484-05:00Well, interesting, but of course then it wouldn...Well, interesting, but of course then it wouldn't be a simulation of any version of D&D on that point.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-50094703381772684502016-01-26T10:52:38.163-05:002016-01-26T10:52:38.163-05:00That's great, nice catch!That's great, nice catch!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-36382170191277275542016-01-26T10:51:44.641-05:002016-01-26T10:51:44.641-05:00This feels about right to me.This feels about right to me.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-60584615882366764382016-01-26T10:51:10.962-05:002016-01-26T10:51:10.962-05:00Ha, nice!Ha, nice!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-60923649259394864832016-01-26T08:34:58.094-05:002016-01-26T08:34:58.094-05:00I've allowed a vampire to be bludgeoned with +...I've allowed a vampire to be bludgeoned with +1 chainmail.Baquieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357103428591599364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-5409439157381891772016-01-26T03:40:56.642-05:002016-01-26T03:40:56.642-05:00Appendix P was a reprint of an article from The Dr...Appendix P was a reprint of an article from <i>The Dragon</i> #26. I could be wrong, but I believe that was the first appearance of the <i>Robe of Useful Items</i>, which explains the discrepancy — the Appendix P <i>Robe</i> was the prototypeHolly Oatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01703437987958922954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-45866339515024094592016-01-26T00:49:32.888-05:002016-01-26T00:49:32.888-05:00A thought on your BoW conundrum: why not just say ...A thought on your BoW conundrum: why not just say that normal weapons can be used to beat a lycanthrope into submission, at which point they can be put to the torch - and every unit carries some means for making fire? Mechanically, this could be reflected in lycanthropes gaining a bonus against "normal" units, and a diminished bonus against slightly-more-expensive units "with silver" (i.e. carrying silver knives in addition to their regular arms, or whatever). That might still be hard for you to balance, but at least it wouldn't collapse into a rock-paper-scissors triangle of auto-wins.Confanityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10361443460498670841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-6674027368484863482016-01-25T22:07:26.608-05:002016-01-25T22:07:26.608-05:00Actually, there IS a Silver Dagger in A&D 1e.....Actually, there IS a Silver Dagger in A&D 1e... but not where you'd expect. Not remotely.<br /><br />In Appendix P, Gygax describes "Creating a Party on the Spur of the Moment." I personally see this section as a set of proto-tournament rules, I don't know about anyone else. But they have an unusual curiosity: an entirely different version of the "Robe of Useful Items" included in the standard magic items list.<br /><br />Not only is this version of the Robe more predictable (the DM or player gets to choose the items it produces instead of random selection), but the items themselves vary dramatically. And sure enough, one of the items on this Appendix P version of the Robe of Useful Items is a "DAGGER, silver."<br /><br />The Appendix P Robe also includes what might be my favourite D&D text of all time: "WASP NEST, normal," to which it feels the need to add "about 200 wasps."Marathon Recapshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00264401333887913083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-75182810751433944432016-01-25T17:35:38.515-05:002016-01-25T17:35:38.515-05:00I usally include silverware as part of the treasur...I usally include silverware as part of the treasures, but haven't yet seen my players try to poke a wraith with a silver fork ! porphyre77https://www.blogger.com/profile/07620350717226228078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-3819314553972706052016-01-25T17:14:32.069-05:002016-01-25T17:14:32.069-05:00Growing up in the game with B/X, I always assumed ...Growing up in the game with B/X, I always assumed silver weapons of the arrow and dagger sort. When I switched over to AD&D, I was taken aback by the exclusion of silver daggers, so imported them from Moldvay at the same cost or proportional cost (30gp, I think...?). <br /><br />Since my return to B/X, it's been a moot point...magic-users generally all carry silver daggers (in the Raistlin of Dragonlance vein), as do any others (fighters, thieves, demihumans) who can afford the things. Even so, no one is anxious to go up against a silver-vulnerable creature (i.e. they run from wights and weres-) and I'm not especially gunning to fill my dungeons with them.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-16537345074107843522016-01-25T15:21:35.288-05:002016-01-25T15:21:35.288-05:00I've allowed a werewolf to be beaten to death ...I've allowed a werewolf to be beaten to death with a silver teapot. <br /><br />I guess that puts me in the silver == lycanthrope kryptonite end of the spectrum. BigFellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03052419088140204154noreply@blogger.com