tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post2108170007303428615..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Underworld Overhaul, Pt. 4: Monster Numbers AppearingDeltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-10062547185234336962018-05-20T11:05:02.415-04:002018-05-20T11:05:02.415-04:00Six gnolls isn't that much of an existential t...Six gnolls isn't that much of an existential threat when it's seemingly the first room they've encountered in the dungeon and they've got an Elf and a Magic-User - Sleep will affect 2d6 of them, after all! (Then again, the magic-user prepared Hold Portal.)<br /><br />Magic-users are very good at overcoming (a limited number of) existential threats but would also be very overpowered if you assume that they enter every combat "fresh" like in your simulator so I understand why you're not taking them into account.<br /><br />(Also, again, I'm reminded of the time my players took five first-level characters against 13 Hobgoblins in Keep on the Borderlands: they survived by a combination of Sleep and running away, neither of which are taken into account here.)Neveronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06290575926119589773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-65771991092228181312018-05-19T13:51:28.208-04:002018-05-19T13:51:28.208-04:00"I wonder, how would the numbers change if......"I wonder, how would the numbers change if... monsters with x10 Number Appearing appear in groups (of 1d6 or 1d4+1 or whatever you will)?"<br /><br />Fighter-vs-fighter, that would be roughly tripling the threat from those given monsters, and so effectively instant death. (In some sense, that's the exact question that started this investigation.) Assuming you don't have the exact right spell all the time, or attacks-by-level, which we don't assume here. <br /><br />The Vol-3 dungeon example, is of course, sketchy/suggestive at best (note words such as "suppose", "perhaps, "some evil man", etc.). By my count the total threat/EHD of the ogres is 16, trolls 9 or 18, basilisk 25 (note they're from monster level tables 4, 5, 6). I suppose that might be legitimate for dungeon level 4-5?<br /><br />The expedition example claims to be on the 1st level. I do think that a 1st-level party facing a like-number of gnolls (EHD 2×6 = 12) would be a clear existential threat. We might imagine the intent in that example being a tough group of monsters guarding the entrance to the 2nd level. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-20775417487798735342018-05-19T10:11:19.080-04:002018-05-19T10:11:19.080-04:00I wonder, how would the numbers change if you actu...I wonder, how would the numbers change if you actually assumed that most monsters were singular (albeit multiplied with large parties), and the monsters with x10 Number Appearing appear in groups (of 1d6 or 1d4+1 or whatever you will)?<br /><br />In the BTB tables this means Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, and Men - with the relevant "Men" in this case being Bandits and Berserkers but perhaps not the classed characters.<br />(I suppose you can also extend it below the x10 numbers, but it's tricky to figure out the lower limit. In terms of maximum wilderness NA, it's 36 Small Animals, 30 Zombies, 24 Ghouls, 20 Lycanthropes, 18 Ogres, 16 Wraiths.)<br /><br />When it comes to exact numbers, it's perhaps useful to note the given examples.<br />Experience points: 1 Troll on 5th dungeon level<br />Sample Map 2: 4 Ogres<br />Sample Map 4: 1 Basilisk<br />Sample Map 8a: 1-2 Trolls<br />Sample Map 8b: 1 "evil man"<br />Example dungeon expedition: "Half-a-dozen" gnolls (party size is 6 people)Neveronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06290575926119589773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-78169002378685128792018-05-16T08:40:56.511-04:002018-05-16T08:40:56.511-04:00Yeah I get that, in practice. "This dungeon i...Yeah I get that, in practice. "This dungeon is scaled for the 5 players that can fit at my dinning room table" :)<br />Baquieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357103428591599364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-62171090108669685092018-05-15T22:20:10.777-04:002018-05-15T22:20:10.777-04:00Good question. I'm 80% sure that the rule in O...Good question. I'm 80% sure that the rule in OD&D Vol-3 that I'm quoting numerous times is purely just about game balance. I've never seen it justified afterward in terms of noise or anything.<br /><br />Since I first wrote this, it's a bit funny to see how dependent the argument is on that scaling rule, when I don't use it in practice at all. Rather, I just use it to gauge how a dungeon intended for a "typical 4-PC party" should be stocked. (Also that rule was dropped in any later ruleset like AD&D. I recall two TSR adventures that suggested scaling to party size in the very first encounter, and never spoke of it again.)<br /><br />The issue of hireling XP is perennially a sticky wicket, and was just asked on the Facebook AD&D group a few days ago. My understanding is by the AD&D RAW the extra XP is just lost (your first case). In practice I think most of us (incl. me) add up the fractions and divide by that so nothing is lost (your second case). Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-12251015831546831032018-05-15T10:09:28.843-04:002018-05-15T10:09:28.843-04:00Couple random thoughts, seems a good a topic as an...Couple random thoughts, seems a good a topic as any to put them.<br />What is the conceit of scaling Number of Monster with number in the party; just an early rule of thumb for encounter balance, or the notion that More people = more noise = more monsters?<br /><br />If it is people = noise = monsters, then I guess hirelings should = full people, and actually may be a detriment to overall success.<br /><br />I am curious how others to "half shares" for hirelings. Do you take their cut off the top, and toss away remainder, or re-calc the splits? <br />Ex: Part of 3 characters and one hireling defeat a monster for 1000xp. <br />Do the characters each get 250xp, and the hireling gets 125?<br />Or do the characters get 286 XP and the hireling 142?Baquieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08357103428591599364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-91304501220156327702018-05-14T18:09:43.516-04:002018-05-14T18:09:43.516-04:00Thanks for the kind words and the attention for de...Thanks for the kind words and the attention for detail! Your observations sound solid to me. I also agree with the jihad vs. non-d6/d20 dice; in fact, it significantly pained me to observe the 1d6 scale factor as clearly too dangerous, and to suggest the 1d4+1 instead.<br /><br />I think in practice I'd be prone to roll 1d6 for the monster number appearing (in a lair), and re-roll any 1's or 6's. <br /><br />To your question: In theory, scaling by the party size would (I think) be ideal; so a party of 5 gets 5/4 as many monsters, found by a calculator (round to taste). In practice I would probably just dictate "this dungeon is balanced expecting 4 PCs" and not modify things on the fly. On the other hand, if you regularly have 8 PCs (convention tourney?) then double everything shown. <br />Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-83988468962514036992018-05-14T12:34:40.836-04:002018-05-14T12:34:40.836-04:00Sorry for the pile-on...
Just to be very clear, n...Sorry for the pile-on...<br /><br />Just to be very clear, numbers below for LAIR encounters (not wandering):<br />- Host's proposal (IIRC): NA Scaling Factor = 1d4+1 for every four PCs.<br />- My proposal: NA Scaling Factor = 1d3 for every two PCs or fraction thereof. Thus, 2d3 for every four PCs. Or, if you prefer a more "natural" curve, 4d3 drop the highest/lowest for four PCs.<br /><br />Delta, if you don't mind -- how should the 1d4+1 scale factor vary for groups <4 PCs, or >4 PCs?<br />- Could it be generalized as "1d4 for every three PCs, +1 for each additional PC?" This is easy to remember but results in less variability in NA as the PC group grows larger (and <variability works in the PC's favor).<br />- Or "1d4+1" for every four PCs or fraction thereof? This results in "cliffs" with high lethality when adding a 5th or 9th PC. It also makes adventuring with 1-2 characters pretty lethal I'd think.<br /><br />Maybe I missed that detail in the writeup above...<br /><br />As always thanks for the care you put into this analysis!Vedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17734788809479835449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-37869684936419185182018-05-14T10:51:10.541-04:002018-05-14T10:51:10.541-04:00I've been thinking about this as well.
One &q...I've been thinking about this as well.<br /><br />One "solution" I have tentatively set on is:<br />NA = scaleFactor × level / EHD<br /><br />Where scale factor = 1d3 per 2 characters or fraction thereof.<br />- Hirelings of 1HD are worth 1/2 character (which neatly addresses our hireling issue from the last post).<br />- To make rapid play easier, assume that EHD is the middle of the range for the level of monster generated.<br />- To put it on a curve, roll two extra D3 and discard the highest and lowest results.<br />- If there is a remainder of "unspent" monster HD then sprinkle in a few level 1 monsters (random orcs, skeletons, etc). This results in fairly smooth scaling for parties of different sizes.<br />- Finally, D3 allows use of common D6s (I've been on a jihad to purge dice other than D6s and D20s from my table for common rolls).<br /><br />I also thought about higher variability inherently increasing lethality. However, in actual play, I suspect that this is mitigated via (a) multiple classes and (b) running away. For example, one of those extra-deadly larger than normal encounters should be ID'd and result in the magic-user dropping one of their precious Sleep Spells, or a cleric turning undead and making the problem go away, or some sort of consumable (potion/scroll) being used. Or, if all else fails, running away.<br /><br />I don't know if it would be possible to run the Arena code with a variation for extra deadly encounters, perhaps giving something like a 33% chance to "auto-win" (simulating potion/sleep spell/etc) and a 33% to flee. I suspect that would increase character survival quite a bit, at least assuming skilled play.Vedronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17734788809479835449noreply@blogger.com