tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post1000783558183169582..comments2024-03-26T15:35:56.004-04:00Comments on Delta's D&D Hotspot: Violence Inherent in the System (of Art)Deltahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-23085163179166736782021-12-21T14:14:07.516-05:002021-12-21T14:14:07.516-05:00I have a soft spot for the 2nd Ed PHB (1989 printi...I have a soft spot for the 2nd Ed PHB (1989 printing) "glamour shot" on page 7, where the adventurers are posing for a group portrait (did they bring along a painter henchman?) in front of their kill, a small green dragon. Numerous small injuries and damaged clothing in evidence.UCBPaladinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05203153912365740602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-65783538722923177442021-07-19T10:54:24.100-04:002021-07-19T10:54:24.100-04:00I'm glad this resonated!I'm glad this resonated!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-33687703064291992642021-07-19T10:54:02.110-04:002021-07-19T10:54:02.110-04:00Thanks for checking on that!Thanks for checking on that!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-21249548828409512782021-07-19T10:52:39.940-04:002021-07-19T10:52:39.940-04:00Also I once saw a description of a certain politic...Also I once saw a description of a certain politician, "Looks great, sounds great, smells great". :-DDeltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-40995174594994764942021-07-19T10:47:32.464-04:002021-07-19T10:47:32.464-04:00JB, thanks greatly for that post, I think was real...JB, thanks greatly for that post, I think was really great work and commentary!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-74772445756799676472021-07-16T10:58:40.191-04:002021-07-16T10:58:40.191-04:00I've often been put off by modern D&D art,...I've often been put off by modern D&D art, where all the pictures do look like they're posing for the camera, it can look very jarring (4e I remember being especially bad for it), but I couldn't exactly vocalise what the problem was, and why I preferred the older art. I just put it down to reading all the Fighting Fantasy books as a kid and assumed it was something about the black and white line art. Thanks for pointing this out!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-45810387221198638292021-07-15T01:01:44.166-04:002021-07-15T01:01:44.166-04:00Looking through my 4e DMG, and ignoring action sce...Looking through my 4e DMG, and ignoring action scenes where the PCs don't actually look like they are in trouble:<br /><br />p. 11: party fleeing while arrows fly at them, one PC supporting his injured comrade<br /><br />p. 66: PC lighting a torch, unaware that several ghouls are creeping up behind her<br /><br />p. 70-71: PCs fleeing in panic from dart trap<br /><br />p. 89: PC fleeing while arrows fly at him<br /><br />p. 93: PC being struck by a beam of light from a gem being held up by three skeletons (why can't I remember what module that is from?)<br /><br />p. 130-1: adventurer POV of attacking undead army<br /><br />p. 201: party being run down by pack of wolves, rats and bats<br /><br />p. 209: party surrounded and outnumbered by what looks like barghest(?)<br /><br />And in the PH1:<br /><br />p. 50-1: party fighting huge white dragon, one PC pinned to the ground under the dragon's foot, dragon about to chpmp<br /><br />p. 264-5: party in combat with goblins, fighter hits one goblin while goblin shaman shoots PN in the face with a spell<br /><br />p. 296-7: party fighting drow, one PC dead, one trying to hold off enemy while cleric tries to use a raise dead scroll (no, that's not a good idea in 4e either)<br /><br />I will say that the PCs are generally less panicked and more competent looking than in earlier artwork, although that's not universally true.Beorichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05179135838206052198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-20624125100426100382021-07-15T00:31:32.128-04:002021-07-15T00:31:32.128-04:00@ Dan:
Leaving out the FF (which just ratchets th...@ Dan:<br /><br />Leaving out the FF (which just ratchets the fear, death, and despair up to another level, even for 1E)...<br /><br />A "surprised adventurer" or a "possible ambush" does NOT (in my opinion) count for a perilous situation. Surprise happens in D&D; ambushes may happen (they're in the same arena as "surprise" really)...these illustrations of POTENTIAL harm aren't nearly the same as individuals facing ACTUAL harm, the latter of which is evidenced in images of:<br /><br />- running in fear<br />- confrontations with facial expressions of abject terror (not just surprise)<br />- characters held, restrained, knocked out, or grappled<br />- killing blows (HPs being abstract, this can be any serious physical injury)<br />- already DEAD bodies lying around (PCs only!)<br />- characters being shock, enchanted, or otherwise "gotcha'd" by magic and/or traps<br /><br />Potential peril isn't the same as actual...1st edition AD&D is filled with illustrations of ACTUAL harm. Images of ACTUAL harm are largely missing from 2E and 3E books, being replaced by images of POTENTIAL harm, often ones that "call back" to 1E illustrations of actual harm.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-52186543998948661582021-07-14T22:39:26.584-04:002021-07-14T22:39:26.584-04:00@JB
If you have the anniversary reprint, the page ...@JB<br />If you have the anniversary reprint, the page numbers might be slightly different. Otherwise, you have the 1989 version which, as mentioned, I couldn't really find any artwork that fit the bill.<br /><br />As for the pieces mentioned, I tried to pick out the most hopeless situations, but on the other hand I probably could have included even more and still been in keeping with Delta's selections from the 1E books. For example, there's a picture of three men trying to fight a fire-breathing hydra that's very similar in tenor to the one shown above with the group fighting the catoblepas. The ones with the kobolds and jermlaine overwhelming a lone PC-type are clearly descendants of the 1E picture with the small creatures netting the adventurer. As for showing ambushes, perhaps they're overused a little, but they're clearly fair game in light of the much-beloved picture of the skeleton rising out of the water to ambush the adventurer who's trying to open a door. I'd say that overall 2E is on par with 2/3 of the pictures that Delta picked out, but excluded the more graphic violence of ones such as the babbler or berbalang.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-42259477766414833202021-07-14T16:08:41.721-04:002021-07-14T16:08:41.721-04:00I liked the way, in the Goodman Games interview, y...I liked the way, in the Goodman Games interview, you described new school PC portrayals: “They look like they smell nice.”Stephen Wendellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16828432713646210247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-85017031884818185642021-07-14T15:35:40.984-04:002021-07-14T15:35:40.984-04:00"Disgust" is probably too strong a word ..."Disgust" is probably too strong a word (I *did* write "somewhat disgusted..."). Regardless the post is up now, for interested folks:<br /><br />http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/2021/07/the-art-of-peril.html<br /><br />; )JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-52028770534271344922021-07-13T17:30:39.343-04:002021-07-13T17:30:39.343-04:00Also like that it's on the player's side o...Also like that it's on the player's side of the screen, from what it looks like, to remind them what's up. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-20305779775521208962021-07-13T17:27:57.086-04:002021-07-13T17:27:57.086-04:00Oh yeah, that's nifty! Thanks for pointing it ...Oh yeah, that's nifty! Thanks for pointing it out, that wouldn't come to mind for me. Gonna post that on my Twitter. :-)Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-37367350514362514262021-07-13T17:26:37.887-04:002021-07-13T17:26:37.887-04:00Yeah, it's one of my favorites! One of the 3E ...Yeah, it's one of my favorites! One of the 3E books had a recreation by WAR, which is more action-dynamic, but loses the lost-cold-deep-echoing-doom tone of the original. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-50173885608866754082021-07-13T17:25:02.184-04:002021-07-13T17:25:02.184-04:00Definitely a lot there.Definitely a lot there.Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-88017894374406943932021-07-13T17:24:46.195-04:002021-07-13T17:24:46.195-04:00Great thoughts here. It's good to consider the...Great thoughts here. It's good to consider the B/X set: admittedly I think there was some intentional "for the kids" design going on, with the boxed sets intended for toy stores. (Of course, that's how my friends and I got into it at a very early age so... thank you!?). <br /><br />Good point about the text combat descriptions. AS you know we've pointed a couple times in D&D where a pictorial chart contradicted text, and in every case <a href="https://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2011/09/power-of-pictures.html" rel="nofollow">the picture is what people recall</a>. <br /><br />Thanks to you guys for looking through the 2E books, I definitely ran out of time for further research!<br /><br />Looking forward to JB's blog -- wondering if he's disgusted by the violence or the later lack thereof. :-)<br />Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-81035408964376974542021-07-13T17:17:44.682-04:002021-07-13T17:17:44.682-04:00Thanks for that example! I'll confess that PF ...Thanks for that example! I'll confess that PF tends to be a bit of my radar. Not hugely surprised those guys maintain some older-school vibes. Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-39192582062061086692021-07-13T17:16:09.712-04:002021-07-13T17:16:09.712-04:00Good point!Good point!Deltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00705402326320853684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-65193751461713089942021-07-13T16:02:58.988-04:002021-07-13T16:02:58.988-04:00My favorite has always been this awesome piece on ...My favorite has always been this awesome piece on the screen of AC2 of a halfling fleeing in terror from from some unknown foe in the background Lance Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13817319325489613672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-50504760466697074322021-07-13T04:41:52.526-04:002021-07-13T04:41:52.526-04:00Huh. I'm surprised. I went through my 2E (and ...Huh. I'm surprised. I went through my 2E (and 3E) books after writing my initial comment and found almost nothing in either core set. The illustrations you cite here (from the revised 2E) are nowhere to be found in my books.<br /><br />Even so, "about to ambush" or "being surprised" isn't nearly the same as obvious damage/death being inflicted. The THREAT of peril doesn't amount to more than a mild chest-thumping panic. I want more from my D&D than weak-sauce chills/thrills...show me the actual stakes!<br /><br />I plan on writing my own blog post about this (probably tomorrow), but I have to say that...after reading this post and doing my own research on the subject...I find myself both bemused and, well, somewhat disgusted. And I'll say also that I find myself pitying players who came to the game post-1982 or (worse!) post-1989.JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-48216881837040793642021-07-12T22:29:17.901-04:002021-07-12T22:29:17.901-04:00I don't have the 1989 DMG, and the 1989 PHB di...I don't have the 1989 DMG, and the 1989 PHB didn't seem to have anything relevant to this topic. Here's what I found in my 2nd Edition revised books; I've left out quite a few where a fight seems to be going against the adventurers, or they're encountering something that looks to be out of their league, in favor of only the ones where the monsters have already won or it seems like a foregone conclusion. Even so, it is worth noting that they're pretty much all less "graphic" - as much as you can consider some of the cartoon violence from 1E to be graphic - and stop short of showing adventurers impaled or eaten.<br /><br />PHB:<br />p. 14, grell about to ambush a man<br />p. 17, giant fish preparing to swallow a group of adventurers who are inside Otiluke's Resilient Sphere<br />p. 24, adventurer surprised by giant ant erupting from the ground<br />p. 100, adventurer being overwhelmed by kobolds<br /><br />DMG<br />p. 63, wizard getting surprised and overwhelmed by jermlaine<br />p. 131, giant octopus crushing a longshipDanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285793254382192231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-3948232117193979812021-07-12T21:24:19.742-04:002021-07-12T21:24:19.742-04:00That pic of the flooding room with the stuck door ...That pic of the flooding room with the stuck door and a skeleton approaching with a sword always gave me the willies! Definitely old school.tanner casthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07746894650600101572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-37641217963949873162021-07-12T16:29:14.063-04:002021-07-12T16:29:14.063-04:00HackMaster 4th edition gloriously exemplifies doom...HackMaster 4th edition gloriously exemplifies doomed characters in its art.Geoffrey McKinneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16725764417685928963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-88885127026744683542021-07-12T16:14:50.838-04:002021-07-12T16:14:50.838-04:00I find that a lot of the 3e and later art lacks ac...I find that a lot of the 3e and later art lacks action of any kind. Most monsters are shown in isolation, so you can hold it up and say "see, one of these", or similar for weapons and classes. Whenever spells got illustrations uou had action, but it was usually PC-on-NPC violence.Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07308961452731842972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2170237526012357403.post-32023092896247683152021-07-12T13:45:00.049-04:002021-07-12T13:45:00.049-04:00So many from the MM, of course (in answer to your ...So many from the MM, of course (in answer to your final question).<br /><br />I think illustration puts a powerful imprint in the minds of the reader, which is part of the reason why art is so important to an imaginative pastime like RPGs. There is no board, no minis required, so what helps with the initial visualization process (image being the root of imagination)?<br /><br />And this “imperiled adventurer” artwork is so in contrast from later editions that it can’t help but set the tone and standard for game play.<br /><br />Interestingly, B/X (perhaps) really shows itself as a transitionary edition in this regard. While its illustrations aren’t nearly as heroic as later editions (starting with Mentzer’s BECMI) none of the illos show the PCs in absolute peril. On the other hand, the detailed textual examples of play (in both the combat and DM’s section) explicitly describe character deaths in such a way as to point to the inimical peril of the activity. It doesn’t leave quite the same impression as the 1E illustrations (a picture being worth a thousand words), but it at least makes clear the expectation.<br /><br />Contrast Moldvay’s basic book with the Mentzer example of play, wherein the reader is left with an idea that helpful/cherished NPCs may be killed willfully, but the PC is expected to survive (perhaps to later gain “revenge”). Ugh.<br /><br />I’ll have to look through my 2E and 3E books (I retain copies for academic reasons only) to see if there are ANY real examples of peril or PC destruction. Somehow I doubt I’ll find much (nothing comes immediately to mind).<br /><br />JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03263662621289630246noreply@blogger.com